1636: The Saxon Uprising — Snippet 56
Chapter 20
Magdeburg
“And here comes the only concession,” Rebecca continued, reading from the sheet in her hand. “It is in the last two items, on matters of religion. ‘Point Eight. All provinces shall be required to designate a single established church, with the exception of the State of Thuringia-Franconia, which may designate several.”
“All of them province-wide?” interjected Constantin Ableidinger. “Or must each provincial district choose a single church?”
He held up a stiff, admonishing forefinger. “I warn you! We Lutherans will not tolerate sloppiness in such matters!”
Rebecca bestowed the smile upon him that she always bestowed on Ableidinger’s antics. The one that exuded long-suffering patience rather than serenity.
“Stop clowning around, Constantin,” grumbled Gunther Achterhof. “What difference does it make? We’re not going to abide by it anyway.”
The little exchange had given Rebecca time for further thought, during the course of which she realized that Ableidinger’s heavy-handed humor might actually contain a serious kernel — whether he realized it or not, which he probably didn’t.
“Maybe we will, Gunther,” she said. She raised her own forefinger in response to the look of outrage on his face. The gesture in this case was one that indicated a desire for forbearance rather than admonishment. “But let us not get ahead of ourselves. There is still one more provision in Point Eight and a final Point Nine in the Charter of Rights and Duties.”
The pitch of her voice shifted back to a slight singsong as she resumed quoting from the sheet. “The remaining provision in Point Eight is that: ‘These churches shall receive financial support from their respective provinces.’ Finally: ‘Point Nine. No church, whether established or not, shall be forbidden to exist, provided that it abides by the laws of the nation and its province.”
She laid down the sheet. “As I said, a concession of sorts, at the very end.”
“Not much of one,” observed Helene Gundelfinger. “All it recognizes is the abstract right of non-established churches to ‘exist.’ That’s a rather metaphysical proposition, taken by itself. The way that provision is couched, it seems to me, a province could recognize a church’s ‘existence’ while simultaneously forbidding its members to meet, to collect funds, or to have church leaders.”
She turned toward Werner von Dalberg, who was seated far enough down the long table to her right that she had to lean forward a little to see him. “Am I right, Werner?”
The FoJP leader from the Oberpfalz was the one person in the group who had extensive legal training.
He grinned. “Metaphysics has nothing on the law. That issue could be contested in the courts for years. In the event — the not-improbable event, actually — that a church so victimized should employ me as their lawyer, I would argue that the term ‘to exist’ implies all those things that were simultaneously banned, and hence the ban is null and void.” His eyes got a slightly-unfocussed, distant look. “Interesting question, actually. I’m sure the judges would rule in my favor when it came to being able to collect funds. Without money on which to operate, any and all human institutions are vacant abstractions. And for much the same reason, I’m pretty sure they’d rule in my favor when it came to the right to meet. The designation of officers of the church, however — by whatever method — is considerably more –”
“Werner!” Rebecca interrupted him. “We can come back to this at a later time. We have more pressing issues to deal with.”
He gave her a rueful, apologetic smile. “Sorry. I got a bit carried away. Lawyers, you know. Philosophers flee at our approach.”
Rebecca gave the sheet on the table in front of her a last, considering look. “Actually, my objection was not to your lawyering but to the specific subject, which for the moment is somewhat trivial. Taken as a whole, I think the right strategy for us in response to this attack from Berlin is precisely ‘to lawyer.'”
Predictably, Gunther Achterhof’s face darkened. “Rebecca, if you think for a minute that we’re going to tolerate –”
“Let. Her. Finish,” said Helene.
“Yes, please,” added Magdeburg province’s governor, Matthias Strigel. “Rebecca, go on.”
“They have made several bad errors, in my opinion. Within the great error of their purpose itself, I should say. The first and the worst was arresting Wilhelm Wettin. The second, and almost as bad, was to convene in Berlin. The two mistakes together make everything they’ve done legally invalid.”
“What difference does it make?” demanded Achterhof. “They’re not going to abide by the law, and neither are we. We’re now in a state of civil war! Almost by definition, the laws of the land are no longer binding on anyone.”
“He’s got a point, Rebecca,” said Albert Bugenhagen. The mayor of Hamburg was sitting at the middle of the table almost directly opposite Helene. His fingers were steepled in front of his face, which, combined with his even tone of voice, made the statement one of judicial observation rather than actual agreement with the substance of Achterhof’s argument.
“Yes — but it is much too broad.” She leaned forward slightly, to give added emphasis to her next words. “What is a ‘civil war’ in the first place? Gunther uses the term as if it were a depiction of a concrete object, like a tree or a table. Something simple and discrete. But the phenomenon is actually very complex, and with no clear boundaries. There are civil wars and there are civil wars, no two of which are exactly the same and any one of which has its own peculiar characteristics.”
By now, either Achterhof or Ableidinger would have started interrupting, had anyone else been talking. But even they had learned that Rebecca’s trains of thoughts were worth following.
“When it comes to this civil war, I would qualify the term with several addenda. As follows.” She began counting off her fingers. “First, it is a civil war triggered off not by the collapse of final authority but by its mere absence — an absence, furthermore, which may well prove temporary.”
Constantin was frowning. “What does that mean?”
Von Dalberg spoke up. “What she means is that the crisis was precipitated by Gustav Adolf’s injury. As opposed, for instance, to one or another side in the conflict rejecting the emperor’s authority in itself. What happens, then, if he recovers?”
Rebecca nodded. “Yes, precisely. This is a critical issue because it drives the pace of Oxenstierna’s actions and maneuvers. If Gustav Adolf recovers before he completes his project, it is likely the project will be discontinued. So the chancellor has no choice but to force the process, risking blunders for the sake of celerity.”
She counted off another finger. “Secondly, it is a civil war clouded by great uncertainty when it comes to the issue of the succession. Or rather, the issue of a regency. The succession itself is clear — Princess Kristina, the emperor’s only child — but she is still a minor and thus cannot take the throne herself. And the USE is not Sweden, which has clear and established rules governing the establishment of a regency. So, as with the state of Gustav Adolf’s own condition, everything is murky — which, again, forces Oxenstierna to drive forward with great haste.
“Thirdly, by convening in Berlin instead of Magdeburg, Oxenstierna and his reactionary plotters have denied themselves the possibility of a quorum. The constitution is quite clear on this point — a majority of the members of Parliament must be present or there is no quorum and Parliament cannot legitimately conduct any business.”
“But…” Liesel Hahn, an MP from Hesse-Kassel, was frowning. “But they have a majority, Rebecca.”
“Ha!” Constantin Ableidinger slapped the table. “Rebecca is right!”
“Yes, she is,” agreed von Dalberg. He looked toward Hahn. “The fact that they have a majority doesn’t matter, Liesel, unless they can get a majority actually present at the session of Parliament.”
The absence of a quorum justifies the FOJ in opposing the Charter of Rights and Duties. Whether it convinces all of the fence-sitters or not is an open question. No doubt Flint will get around to answering that, sometime before April. But Becky’s point is well taken. Oxensterna is the one who has to hurry. The FOJ can, (and will) wait until he does something which tilts the balance against him.
I’d like to know what the rest of the points were. Point 1 moves the capital to Berlin. Points 8 & 9 are the religious ones from this snippet. What are the other 6?
That’s all well and good, but it’s clear that Oxenstierna is not willing to follow any rules but his own. Therefore, what’s to stop them from changing the rules about a quorum ex-post facto? Indeed I’m slightly suprised they haven’t already done it.
I guess I am with Gunther on this. When one side is willing to throw away the rule book, then legalisms don’t matter much.
-Polaris
#1 That’s all well and good, and certainly the legalism about a quorum gives those inclined to side with the 4JP (Magdeburg/SoTF/Hamburg) enough cover to ignore anything coming out of Berlin. The problem is I don’t see it really helps them beyond that since Oxenstierna is clearly willing to throw away the rule book.
Something else just occured to me. You don’t have to vote to be considered ‘present’ for the purposes of a quorum. I know that in the US congress, there are many times when a representative or senator will vote “present” rather than yea or nay on a difficult vote…or even not vote at all.
Since the Crown Loyalists do have a majority and 50%+1 seems to be the quorum requirement for parliament, what’s to stop Oxenstierna from enticing or even kidhapping enough members to be “present” for a quorum? That would remove the last legal fig-leaf the CoC/4JP has left.
Even if he wanted to I don’t think that Ox could do things legally at this point. The Crown Loyalists are the majority, and Ox has the majority of the Crown Loyalists on his side but I don’t think that his majority of a majority is an overall majority at this point. He’s passing stuff by acclamation in Berlin but I don’t think that he’d be able to get a legal majority together at this point if he were trying to follow the letter of the law.
@4 Good point, Ian, but how would they go about kidnapping others? They might could find others at home or en route thereto or from, and quietly kidnap them, but those in Magdeburg would much more difficult to spirit away undetected, and if they were caught in the attempt, it seems unlikely Becky and the rest would consent to keep it quiet.
And this time it’s 72 hours we have to wait, not 48!
But remember whats going on most of the towns and cities are currently sitting on the fence in all of this. I can almost guarentee that the more sober members of the crown loyalist like Heese Kessel and Brunswick are going to look at the arrest of Wettin by Axel and the reactionaires and sit this out as long as the CoC’s dont starting acting stupid.
Also as was pointed out in this snippet is that time is on the CoCs side not Axels he has to accomplish what he wants quickly unless G2A strokes or something.
#4 Ian: Oxensterna didn’t invite any member even of the Crown Loyalists who he wasn’t sure supported him to Berlin. I doubt that he could entice them. Once he kidnapped enough people, including maybe ruling princes, how does he get them to NOT vote?
#2&3 Ian: The more rules Oxensterna changes, the more toes he’s likely to step on. His game is to look as legal as possible, with the object of keeping as many people as possible on the fence. He has gone to great lengths to try to neutralize FOJ & COC armed forces. He probably thinks that he has enough military power to win. Becky wants to win the coming civil war decisively. Right now, she thinks that she doesn’t have enough power to do that. She needs to needs to convince as many as possible of the neutrals to support her cause. I think she’s more than smart enough to know that barely winning a civil war is almost a defeat.
#6 For the most part I agree. Time is on the 4JP/CoC side especially in the grand scheme of things. However (ref to 4,5), I am not so sure it is in the short run. It sounds like the rules for a quorum are very generous in the USE and the Crown Loyalists already have a majority.
The longer this drags out, the more members of parliament could be “encouraged” to visit Berlin if Axel even bothers…which I think he will once the quorum issue is raised. Thus in the short run, I’m not so sure that time is really on the 4JP’s side as much as we want to think.
#7 Simple enough if you are ruthless enough. You bind and gag them, place them in the seat and have others confirm as a matter of record they are there. Then it’s a quorum. I seem to recall this was done in many Latin American Countries not so long ago.
#10 Sorry but on additional point (ref 9). You don’t even have to bind and gag them necessarily. If you are sure that you have a majority that will vote for you that are present (and Axel seems assured of this), then you dragoon in just enough to make a quorum, and let them vote ‘no’. Probably look better legally anyway. They’ll be outvoted anyway, and the 4JP has then lost it’s last legal leg to stand on.
Yes but who is Axel going to use to kidnap people to get his quorum? hes got some troops to keep security in Berlin but his main field army is on its way Dresden. More improtantly does he even care hes being bold an ruthless in this so from his side if he wins its moot. In reality the only people who will care about wheter he has quorum or not are all German.
Note that Becky said that they were going to do some lawyering. I expect them to do a markup of the document or at least request clarification of virtually all the points, and continue that back and forth for as long as they can hoping GA will recover. Then they will point out the requirement that parliament must meet at the legally designated place to ratify the document. They will stretch everything out as long as possible before they finally take up arms, unless Gustav recovers before then…which I am betting he will.
Meanwhile back in Dresden…the Chancellor has no idea what is gonna happen. Even though he thinks he does.
Frankly, the only thing that can save his butt would be for GA to recover, put an end all the nonsense and ship him back to Sweden.
#11 I think that Axel is rich enough to hire a few Hunter-Killer teams like Borja did in Cannon Law. In fact, if the Crown Loyalist people are killed, then the crown loyalists can appoint someone to fill the seat and will vote with Axel so even better (and replacing members is done by the party so no quorum is needed). As for the quorum, I will tell you who will care: Col. Woods and Admiral Simpson especially the later. Whatever his sympathies are, if Axel gets a quorum, then the USE Navy would be legally obligated to follow orders from Berlin, and Adm Simpson has the Princess Kristina in protective custody as we speak.
#12 The OTL G2A was known for his ferocious temper. If he recovers, Axel will be lucky to be exiled to the deepest, darkest part of Finland. More probably, he will be executed.
@14 Ian: Only if Gus wakes up enough to reestablish himself in command before Ox finds out and silences Gus first. Remember, Ox has already betrayed Gus by sending away the most competent physician available, so would he really stop at killing Gus if “necessary”?
#15 True. G2A needs to get out of Berlin ASAP.
As a somewhat humorous aside, I wonder if and when G2A recovers, if he will permit his “brother”, Christain IV of Denmark to fit Axel with his own “Eddie Cantrell” Diving Suit :D
First off, I wonder if Oxernstierna will pay attention to the fact that he has no authority to propose any laws or motions in the USE. Judging by his performance earlier, I would say not, but it’s a legal technicality. Second, I wonder if there is actually any legality to “passed by acclimation”. Without knowing USE law, I can’t say for sure, but I’m pretty sure that the House and Senate in the USA actually require a count of all votes. If that’s the case in the USE (and assuming that Oxenstierna continued to “pass by acclimation” rather than counting the votes), that means all of the points that were just now passed would actually be completely invalid and thus not binding at all.
It’s to their advantage to press each challenge separately, if possible. They’re playing for time and waiting for Oxenstierna to overreach – and if Wettin is in the meantime freed to speak his piece about the real reason he was arrested, Oxenstierna’s plans are basically dead in the water. I don’t think most of the Crown Loyalists would be willing to tolerate Oxenstierna’s plot to have whatever that castle was attacked by Bavaria, certainly not if it’s exposed beforehand.
Going to law is a fine solution in the 17th century, where cases could drag on for a generation. But to what court of law can you take the case? Is there a supreme court for the USE? The various states will have their traditional courts, and technically above them (before the USE) was the Reichskammergericht but I think that way out no longer exists.
@18 (Jeff Ehlers) —
You asked: I wonder if Oxernstierna will pay attention to the fact that he has no authority to propose any laws or motions in the USE.
From Snippet 55 (the previous snippet):
Oxenstierna’s assessment proved quite accurate. He began the assembly by making the announcement that Wilhelm Wettin had been discovered plotting with seditious elements and been placed under arrest. Following the laws of the USE, his successor would be whatever person was chosen by the party in power, the Crown Loyalists. The Swedish chancellor elided over the fact that he had no authority in the USE to be arresting anyone and that he was planning to discard those same laws as soon as possible. (emphasis mine)
It seems certain that he knows he has no authority and intends nonetheless to ignore that fact until such time as laws are established giving him that authority. Then, of course, he will point out to any who challenge him that he has authority to do whatever he wants to do.
Axel’s big problem in terms of authority is that there are two chambers and he has nothing like a majority in the upper house. Yelling by an inquorate mob of members of one house is not a legislative process. It is true that he is prepared to rip up the rules, but he has to carry the rest of the USE with him and shows little sign of doing that. 2/3 of the USE Army is ignoring orders from the Berlin rump and 1/3 is commanded by Mike Stearns. Axel needs the appearance of legality to control the army and he does not have it.
#21 True, but if he got a quorum by “extreme persuasion” if necessary, he’d have that authority. It wouldn’t matter for Stearn’s 3rd USE, but it would for the 1st and 2nd USE and the USE Navy.
Remember that GIIA designated Magdeburg as the capital city of the USE, meaning that Parliament can ONLY meet in Magdeburg. Furthermore, the USE adopted a ‘British’ parliamentary system, not a ‘United States’ system. This means that Parliament must be convened by the Monarch, in order to BE Parliament. Also, for the members of Parliament to meet AS Parliament outside of the capital city, a lawful session of Parliament has to authorise such in the first place. So, since the Monarch did not convene Parliament, the Crown Loyalists who gathered in Berlin cannot function as Parliament. It is nothing more, in legal terms, than a political rally or convention.
No decisions, resolutions or acts made or adopted by the Berlin assembly will carry the constitutional status of ‘Acts of Parliament’, because 1) the Monarch has not convened a session of Parliament, 2) Oxenstierna has no constitutional status or authority within the USE & thus any interference by him in the constitutional governance of the USE is unlawful, 3) the Prime Minister (Wettin) is not the head of state, but only the chief minister of the Monarch’s government, and cannot convene Parliament in his own right either, & 4) a lawful session of Parliament has never voted to convene elsewhere BUT in Magdeburg.
Nico,
I’m not so sure. Sure it’s called Parliament, but it was my distinct understanding that the USE borrowed uptime US and not UK practices. For starters, the USE Parliament is always ‘in session’ just as Congress is (even when recessed…indeed that’s why they call it RECESS). Also G2A’s authority here is suspect when it comes to convening parliament and designating a capital city since in at least two provinces, he isn’t a ruling monarch (SoTF and Magdeburg). I also recall that the USE Parliament had no trouble convening and doing business when G2A was beseiged at Leubeck which further tells me that the USE uses the uptime American rather than British model.
As for the PM not being a head of state, precedence says otherwise. Michael Stearns when he was prime minister of the USE acted like a head of state and G2A never called him on it. The only thing that G2A insisted on (as Captain General of the USE) was that he would have the final say as to the disposition of USE armed forces. Because (as I say before), G2A isn’t even considered to be an Emperer in two of the USE’s provinces (Magdeburg and SoTF…which happen to be the most populous and economically healthy provinces), there is a very blurry line about who is head of state.
Some thoughts on the kidnapping issue.
We don’t know how many members the House of Commons has in total.
We don’t know how many members the House of Lords has in total.
We don’t know how many of each are in Berlin.
We don’t know where the members not in Berlin are (mostly).
We don’t know how many have guards, although we do know that some (Hesse, Westphalia) do.
#25 Mike was acting as head of government. Head of state is not the same. In England, the Queen is head of state, and the Prime Minister is head of government. In european democracies, the president is head of state, and the prime minister is head of government usually, although practices differ somewhat.
The more Rebecca exposes the failure to obey the law, the more people are going to distrust Ox. They know Stearns does not imprison his opponents just because he can. They know Ox has no such scruples. Once the Bavarian connection comes out, most of the USE is going to oppose Ox. In self defence if nothing else.
One other complication Ox may not have considered: there is a Wettin with a sizable and fairly good army who may decide that blood is more important than old family arguements and might be angered by the false imprisonment of his brother.
#26 Dave-o, I am familiar with how European democracies work, but I think it would be a grave mistake to assume that the USE adopted the European model especially since it’s clear that G2A isn’t the head of state in all the provinces of the USE and the USE seems to have a true federal structure. I am not saying that the PM of the USE is or is not the head of state. What I am saying is that unlike in uptime USA or Europe, it’s a murky issue. I am virtually certain that the USE Parliament uses uptime US rather than UK rules though (which means it’s a permanent body and doesn’t rely on a king among other things).
#30 I note that Michael Stearns sister (Rita) was accepted as a valid ambassador by King Charles [and likewise his wife Rebecca by both Richelieu and the United Provinces] because of their relationship to the head of state. Again, a very murky issue.
#28 I don’t think it’s an issue. Wettins had the loyalty of the troops of Saxe-Wiemar and they have by this time almost certainly been absorbed into the SoTF National Guard.
#31 Stanley Leghorn was referring to Duke Bernard. His army has not been absorbed into the SOTF National Guard. I think Bernard is probably more interested in his own power, but family ties in the 17th century were a lot stronger than we can imagine now. Bernard’s quarrel was with Gustav, who’s out of the picture right now, so he might well decide to support Wilhelm and Ernst.
I don’t understand all the hoopla about government type: it’s been frequently stated over the last several books (Baltic War, Eastern Front, and even in previous Snippets for Saxon Uprising) that the USE government is most similar to that of 18th Century Britain/UK. There may be variations from the direct process OTL, but there’s no way in hell G2A would’ve allowed a government that didn’t require his stamp of approval for such large changes as Ox is fomenting. We’ll see on Monday just how the FoJP discussion continues, but I believe it will be in that same vein.
@1 dave o: We heard that Point 2 began: “For the purposes of determining citizenship-“. So we know it’s probably about the CLs main dispute with Ram/CoC/4JP – who gets to decide who can be a citizen of a province? (CLs’ answer: the provincial government [aka them in several of the provinces]).
@31 Ian: When Rita Simpson and Rebecca Stearns were accepted as ambassadors, Mike was head of state and government for the NUS, which is no more – it’s the SoTF in the USE now.
@21: I’m aware of that. The point is that his lack of authority prevents him from being able to propose laws. The only way he was able to get away with this platform is that it was the platform of the Crown Loyalists.
Anyway, someone else brought up a good point. Unless this charter was brought up and passed by both houses (and again, I’m not sure that a voice vote counts as ‘passing’), it’s so much toilet paper.
@28 – Dave O: but we do know how many seats the house of Lords has in total. One per province, plus one per imperial city. In a passage earlier in the snippets, they essentially listed each provincial ruler and indicated whether they were on the fence, pro-FOJP, or pro-CR. Essentially, none of the provincial rulers aside from a few of the cities (Ulm, Augsburg, possibly Frankfurt au Main) and G2A as Duke of Mecklenburg and Pomerania are present in Berlin. Brunswick’s ruler is at Poznan, Westphalia’s (the Danish Prince) is not in Berlin, neither is Hesse-Kassel, Tyrol, SOTF or Magdeburg. Mainz, Oberpfalz, Upper Rhine and “Swabia” are all staying in place due to military threats to their areas (either Bernhard, civil unrest in Swabia, or Bavaria). Not sure how you’d count Brandenburg or Saxony. So maybe, just maybe Ox has on hand a “leader” for Brandenburg and Saxony and will act as “regent” for Mecklenburg and Pomerania and has two or three city leaders present. That’s at most seven. And there are definitely nine not present for provinces plus any other cities. Nowhere near a quorum, nowhere near a majority.
The resolutions were not passed by the House of Lords, if that is required, then the resolutions are null and void.
look, Rebecca’s got the right track here, why should the first volley in a civil war be an act of violence? It will only help the CoC and USE to first lawyer up and attck Ox on his weakest place, in this case – his legal authority to enact changes in the USE goverment . Everyone (including OX) knows he has no right to do what he is doing; and the best part is it gets good PR for the CoC and doesn’t cost them anything in blood.
@13 and @24, NONSENSE! What Possible grounds are their for claiming that Parliment MUST meet in Magdenburg. It was summoned by GA’s ministers to the city where GA is resident! Even by the European model that’s FAR MORE than is needed to summon parliment. Note that Becky and her pet lawyer NEVER MENTION the supposedly vital issue that they’re not in the capital.
There is not now, and never has been, any evidence whatsoever that a parliment in Berlin with a quorum would be illegal. Further, if a parliment in Berlin is illegal, then the failure to mention it in THIS SNIPPET, which specifically deals with the legality of the meeting, is catastrophically bad writing. It’s not brought up because if it were it would be laughed at.
Lack of a quorum is a problem, location of the meeting is not a problem. Either it’s at GAs discression, which means in his absence or disability his minister’s discression, or it’s at parliment’s discression, which means its at Wettin’s discression, or it’s where the king is, in which case it’s Berline. In all cases Wettin can summon parliment in Berlin.
Are you seriously trying to claim that if someone nuked London and the Queen were killed and her heir a minor that then the UK government would be TOTALLY AND COMPLETELY UNABLE to function because no one can POSSIBLY call a parliment anywhere but the usual hall except a reigning monarch and her ministers can’t do it for her in her absence, disability, or minority? That’s absurd. That’s not how any system, anywhere, has ever worked, And in this case the parliment is actually meeting in the same city as the king. They could write a summons and use his hand and seal to seal it if they needed to!
#34 Not in the fundamentals. In practice the USE Govt may resemble the UK more than the uptime US, but we know that:
1. USE Parliament is always ‘in session’ following uptime US tradition.
2. The Emperor isn’t even head of state in at least 2 important provinces.
3. The USE has a WRITTEN constitution that details how changes may and may not be done. There is no way that Stearns would ever agree to give G2A the authority to dissolves parliament and rule by himself that the King of Britain to this day still technically has (and when my British friends scoff, I retort that their constitution isn’t worth the paper it’s not printed on…a point even more true in the ATL 17th century USE where traditions haven’t had a chance to form)
So in the ways that matter (quorum, meeting place, safeguards against ‘Imperial’ power), I’d have to say the USE takes from the uptime US far more than the UK even though at first blush the govt seems more like the uptime UK.
actually i think were misreading this passage a little
“Thirdly, by convening in Berlin instead of Magdeburg, Oxenstierna and his reactionary plotters have denied themselves the possibility of a quorum. The constitution is quite clear on this point — a majority of the members of Parliament must be present or there is no quorum and Parliament cannot legitimately conduct any business.â€
now it say be convening in Berlin instead of Magdeburg,it could mean that congress can only meet in Magdeburg. But what if it really means is Axel and Wettin by taking only the reactionaires with them to Berlin instead of all of congress which most are either in Magdeburg or are serving in the USE army or with like Hesse-Kessal at home. So it just means he dosnet have enough people to legally convene parliment regardless of where in the USE he is.
@41 Jason – Your second interpretation is the more valid issue – there is not a quorom present in Berlin. Yes, the Crown Loyalist bloc won a majority of the lower house. However, not all of the Crown Loyalists are in Berlin. Some (such as those sharing sentiments with Hesse-Kassel) are sitting out this whole mess and are at home, some may still be in Magdeburg having not been invited to Berlin or choosing not to go. Dreeson Incident seemed to imply the Crown Loyalists had a majority, but a narrow one.
Unless one were to presuppose that some of the smaller minority parties (other than CL and FOJP) are present in enough numbers to consitute a bare majority – Berlin doesn’t have a quorum of the lower house.
As I pointed out above in post 37 in response to Dave O in 28, we do know the numbers for the House of Lords and there is no way that a quorum of that group is present in Berlin. At most – even counting Brandenburg and Saxony – there are 7 “members” present in Berlin. There are a definite 9, possibly as many as 13 not present. That’s not a quorom of that body either.
The location is not the issue, its that by meeting in that location eliminates the possibility of a quorom for the House of Lords for certain and more than likely also eliminated any chance at a quorom for the House of Commons.
If people are truly wanting a resolution to the “location of parliament” invalidating the charter, you could always see if Drak would be willing to chance his snerk collar…
Mike, from what I’ve seen the “location of parliament” isn’t relevent.
The real problem is the lack of a quorom.
The split of functions between the head of state and head of government in parliamentary democracies is fairly universal. The head of state appoints the prime minister and cabinet, is the commander-in-chief and gets to convene parliament and sign laws. The only exceptions are South Africa where the prime minister is the head of state, Sweden where the speaker appoints the government, and Papua-New Guinea where the speaker signs laws. Contemporary presidents and monarchs do act on the ‘advice’ of the government or the prime minister, but we know that G2A does not seem to ‘act on advice’ at least as commander-in-chief. We also know that in 18th century Britain, the explicit model for the USE, the monarch did not always ‘act on advice’. I do not know that Mike is quite well-informed enough to draw the happy example of Papua-New Guinea to G2A’s attention during the negotiations after Wismar.
All 20th century monarchies except Britain have written constitutions and most have parliaments that function as permanent bodies. In the three federated monarchies, Australia, Canada and Spain, the existence of provincial heads of state does not make any difference to the monarch’s role as federal head of state, any more than Elizabeth II somehow stops being queen in New South Wales because that state has its own governor and premier. Ed Piazza may be the provincial head of state in SoTF, but that does not mean that G2A is not the federal head of state in SoTF or anywhere else in the USE.
We assume that the uptimers always know more. G2A was used to dealing with the Riksdag. He was a significant legislator in his own right. He had been running a national government, and a fairly effective national government, since he was a teenager.
@42 mike: I agree! The points as I see them:
1) The CL party had (before Krystallnacht shifted Mecklenburg (Commons, G2A is Senator (CL)) from CL to FoJP/CoC and Pomeranian seats are in contention) a narrow majority in Commons and a solid majority in Lords/Senate (a possible 12 of 19 at best, 12 of 24 (including all newbies) at worst (all cities go CoC)). But the CL party IS NOT fully present in Berlin. The reactionaries called together by Axel are a MINORITY of CL party-member officials with a whole lot self-selected would-be rulers (over 1/3 (possibly more than 1/2) of attendees in Berlin are Adel and have no voice/vote in USE House of Commons). And as you have pointed out, there is NO POSSIBLE QUOREM of Lords/Senators and extremely small probability of a quorem of Commons.
2) Whether in Magdeburg or Berlin IMO is moot. USE parliment is a permanent sitting body requiring a minimum quorem (of both Houses) to enact legislation or amend the WRITTEN AND RATIFIED constitution.
3) The Prime Minister is the appointed (from the Majority Party of elected government) official and acts as ‘Head of Government’. G2A appointed him (as per the Constituion), he was not elected.
4) G2A as Captain General Gars (not as Emperor G2A) while within NUS was a product of the CPE and not the USE IIRC. IMO he is ‘Head of State’ for all three Crowns.
5) Axel is not even sole Regent for G2A for Sweden and her Dominions, much less the Kalmar Union and USE. He has little to no authority for individual actions as G2A’s proxy even for Sweden. He has NONE for the USE or Kalmar Union!!
#45 I am not sure about points three and four but I agree about the rest of course. Is there actual source material that says that G2A specifically selects the PM from the majority party? As for Capt General Gars, that distinction is still alive and well. Per the Dreeson Incident which happened well after the formation of the USE, G2A was still legally only “Captain-General” Gars, and Madgeburg also adopted the same framework…and game his daughter, Kristina the honorary commission of Lieutenant-General as his heir.
That may still mean he is “head of state” but I don’t think it’s as clear (yet) as you think.
-Polaris
Giving Kristina a Commission may have interesting outcomes.
@47 Captain Gars is the hereditary captain-general of the SoTF and (probably) Magdeburg, which he presumably carried over from his agreement with the old New United States after the Croat raid on Grantville. G2A is the emperor of the USE. The provincial heads of state/heads of government in SoTF and Magdeburg are the president and the governor. The federal head of state in both is the emperor. The captain-general thing seems to have been largely overlooked since the USE was formed.
There is no canon, as far as I know, about how the emperor appoints the prime minister, but it is not laid out in a lot of 20th century parliamentary constitutions either. The understanding is that there is no real need because the parliament can always cut off the money if the head of state grows delusions of grandeur.
IIRC the British monarch can reject a person as Prime Minister, it just isn’t done now days.
However, this isn’t a 20th century parliamentary system.
Ask yourselves, would G2A accept a constitution that gave him as *little* power as a 20th century Monarch?
While he’d accept some limits to his power, he’d expect to have more power than that of a 20th century Monarch.
I’d say more but the snerk collar is flashing a warning light. [Wink]