1636: The Saxon Uprising — Snippet 46

1636: The Saxon Uprising — Snippet 46

Ulrik, however, was not subject to the same insanity. And he had, by his estimate, at least a decade in which to persuade his future wife to forego it as well.

He thought he could succeed in that project. True, Kristina had an imperious temperament. But she was not engrossed with power, as such. She just liked the end results she could obtain from it. Even at the age of nine, her basic character was already evident — and Ulrik had confirmed his assessment by consulting the American history books to see how she’d turned out in that alternate universe. By now, very quietly, he’d had every single item of information Grantville possessed about Kristina stored in his private records, and had studied them to the point of having them memorized.

There was quite a bit, as it turned out. The up-timers had even once made a movie about her with someone named Greta Garbo cast as Kristina. There was no copy of it in Grantville, but that was probably just as well. When he inquired, he was told by one of the librarians that the Garbo woman had been a famous actress in her day. She had some photographs of her in one of their books and had shown them to Ulrik.

The Garbo woman was quite beautiful. That had been enough, right there, to tell Ulrik that the movie had fictionalized Kristina’s life to the point of absurdity. The only thing that would save the Swedish princess from being downright ugly when she grew up was that her vibrant personality would outshine her features.

Still, there had been a number of mentions of her in the various history texts. Far more than almost any other royal of the time period outside of Britain, even male ones.

Vibrant personality, indeed. Glimmers of it had lasted through four centuries and even made their way to another continent. But what people remembered was not her rule, but her discomfort with that rule. The simple truth was that Kristina had no natural aptitude or inclination to be a monarch. That was evident even now. In that other universe, her discomfort had eventually led her to abdicate the throne of Sweden, convert to Catholicism, and move to Rome.

Ulrik thought they could avoid the worst of that, in this universe. Kristine had already told him that her great ambition was to emulate someone named Elkhart and be the first woman to fly an airplane all the way around the world. He would encourage her in that direction — smoothing away the absurd edges, of course. Circumnavigating the earth herself was out of the question, but Kristina had an active intellect as well as an adventurous spirit. There was no reason she couldn’t become this world’s equivalent of Henry the Navigator, was there? Exceed him, in fact.

Ever since the Congress of Copenhagen, Ulrik had been pondering these matters. What sort of USE should they aim for? What would his role be? Kristina’s?

Much remained unclear and uncertain, but Ulrik had reached some conclusions already.

First. The USE would soon — it already did, in many ways — surpass all other European lands as a center of population, industry, commerce, education and culture. It would certainly surpass the Scandinavian nations, regardless of political formalities.

Second. It would be a German nation. Not the only one, since Germans were a colonizing folk. But it would be the center of the German people.

Three. This was more in the way of a goal than a conclusion. In the universe the Americans had come from, the Germans had been politically fragmented until very late in their history. The vacuum that had created in European affairs had been disastrous. In the short run, disastrous for Germans. In the long run, disastrous for everyone.

It would not be so in this universe. Ulrik had spoken enough to Mike Stearns to know that the former prime minister was determined to avoid that at all costs. On that if nothing else, Ulrik agreed with him completely. That was one of the reasons he would oppose his father if Christian tried to pull the USE apart in Denmark’s narrow immediate interest.

Europe needed a stable, powerful, secure and prosperous Germany at its center. Without that, there would always be chaos. Lurking right under the surface if not always in the open.

Four. The national sentiments of the German people, long dormant, were now rising very rapidly. The Ring of Fire had accelerated the process greatly. Something that had taken decades in the Americans’ universe was happening in this one in a handful of years.

Five. Most importantly for Ulrik and Kristina’s own situation, what all of this meant was that the USE’s ruling dynasty would only survive if it transformed itself into a German dynasty. “German,” at least, insofar as the populace accepted Kristina and Ulrik as legitimate and not foreign. Their Scandinavian roots would then be a moot point. Many European dynasties had origins outside their own countries; people took that much in stride as long as they felt the monarch was theirs and not the instrument of another power.

Six. This was his latest conclusion and still a bit tentative, but he was now almost certain that in order to accomplish any of his goals he — and Kristina; without her it would be impossible — had to accept that the future belonged to democracy and not monarchy. He’d read some of Scaglia’s writings and agreed with him at least that far.

The Americans had had a peculiar sport, of which he’d watched videotapes. “Surfing,” they called it.

Needless to say, Ulrik had no intention of half-freezing in the Baltic and risking his life on a flimsy little board. But stripped of the physical aspect and transformed into a political metaphor, “surfing” was exactly what he and Kristina would have to do for the rest of their lives. Ride the ever-growing, thundering waves of Germany and democracy toward the shore; understanding that they did not and could not control it. No one could, really. But they could learn to surf well. They — their children; grandchildren — could reach the shore safely. And if they did it well enough, help many other people to get there safely as well. Perhaps entire nations.

The Union of Kalmar had reached the dock, been tied up, and a gangway laid. Admiral Simpson started to come across.

“What did you say?” asked Kristina.

Ulrik realized he’d been muttering. “Ah…”

“He said, ‘and here comes the big one.'” Baldur was grinning. He’d spent hours discussing these issues with Ulrik. “But he’s quite wrong. This is just the outrider wave. The big one will be riding into Magdeburg.”

“What is he talking about?” She glared up at Ulrik. “You’re keeping things from me again, aren’t you? And you promised you wouldn’t!”

So. Once again, Baldur Norddahl demonstrated his perfidious, foul, treacherous nature. On the brighter side, once again Kristina dispelled any fears that he might have dimwitted children.

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59 Responses to 1636: The Saxon Uprising — Snippet 46

  1. geoA says:

    This world’s “Henry the Navigator”? But Henry’s been dead for centuries… by the time of 1630. I’m not sure I’m tracking what the meaning is supposed to be.

  2. Jeff Ehlers says:

    I believe I mentioned in the last snippet the possibility of Katrina abdicating from the Swedish throne. This snippet pretty well confirms that Ulrik, at least, is thinking along the same lines. Which really just makes sense – there’s no way a Scandinavian king, even one as skilled and popular as Gustav II Adolf, can establish a true dynasty over Germany/the USE, with considerably more than the three-to-one advantage quoted here in favor of the USE. There’s certainly no way some Scandinavian noble can do the same, especially not one as reactionary as Oxenstierna.

  3. Nico de Lange (Jabulani) says:

    geoA – Henry was the Portuguese king whose efforts & dedication first allowed Portuguese, and later other European, sailors to develop the technologies that enabled the birth of modern deep-sea sailing. It was under his patronage that the compass was invented, for example, as well as the application of the sextant to deep-sea navigating. Also, under his patronage Europeans finally developed the galleon and later sailing ship classes that enabled them to sail into the open seas without any kind knowledge of their destination. In other words, Henry was the true father of Europe’s conquest and colonization of the world, AND of the settlement of the New World by Europeans – NOT Columbus or even the much earlier Viking settlers in what is now the Atlantic Provinces of Canada. Before his time, European ships were pretty much confined to coastal sailing, and to the Mediterranean. But that is the minor legacy of his rule. His principal legacy was his patronage of scientific investigation and the technological application of scientific discoveries. I suspect that Ulrik sees Katrina’s insatiable curiosity as her greatest strength, which would help achieve his dream for Europe and the world at large.

  4. Chris says:

    (1) He means that Kristina has the opportunity to be remembered in history as the patron of modern marvels and colonization/exploration of distant lands. There are still many areas of the globe in 1635 that have not been explored yet. Australia and Antarctica have not even been discovered.

    Price Henry is remembered today as ushering in the age of exploration long after any one remembers any other aspects of his reign.

  5. Nico de Lange (Jabulani) says:

    Hi Jeff, I think you’re wrong – about the possibility of a foreign ruler establishing a successful dynasty in the Germanies. As Mr Flint writes in this snippet, most European monarchies have their roots in foreign countries – even those existing today still. The British dynasty, for example, comes from Hannover (Lower Saxony) in Germany, and before that from Russia. The Dutch royal family’s roots go back to Orange in southern France. The Spanish royal family is Austrian in origin, the Danish royal family is British & Russian. The list goes on and on and on.

  6. robert says:

    @1 Henry the Navigator died in 1460. Henry never went off exploring himself but he sent Portuguese ships exploring all around the globe. He was a visionary. All one has to do is stand on the spot dedicated to him just outside Lisbon on the Tagus River to get the feeling that he must have had as he sent those ships down the river and out into the Atlantic and the unknown world beyond.

    That is the context of Ulrik’s thought. And he is not thinking of sailing ships but of aircraft and any other mode of exploration. Ulrik recognizes the changes that technology will bring and keep on bringing, and that Kristina can be the “navigator” influencing the direction and use of those new uptime technologies. It is a brilliant analysis.

  7. robert says:

    @3 Chris, I stepped on your thoughts while I was writing. Sorry. You are right on.

  8. dave o says:

    Kristina’s position is analagous to James I of England. (I forget his regnal number for Scotland.) As queen of both realms, she will inevitably live in the richer and more populous one, the USE. And be identified with it. But that doesn’t mean she has to give up the other, or the Union of Kalmar either. Again, it wouldn’t be stranger than that England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland were ruled by a single monarch for three centuries. The Scandinavian Kingdoms differ linguistically from Gemany rather more than Scotland from England, but less than Wales or Ireland. France, Italy and Spain are other examples of joined Kingdoms. So was Russia.

    I hope the German colonizing Ulric is thinking of isn’t expected in Europe. Bad enough in the new world, but a lot worse in Europe. Lebensraum anyone? Austria will require a immense amount of tact to have a stable state in the Balkans. Possible, but difficult considering the linguistic, religious, and cultural differences.

  9. Jeff Ehlers says:

    @4: I certainly didn’t miss that part of Ulrik’s internal dialogue.

    I used the example of Gustav II Adolf specifically because Gustav would be a king who ruled over Germany from a Scandinavian country (in this case, the Union of Kalmar, or Sweden-Denmark). That’s precisely the sort of foreign rule that wouldn’t work, as Ulrik pointed out. Whereas a foreign-born monarch who was wholly dedicated to the country they ruled or reigned in would be accepted.

    I think Kristina (and Ulrik) could pull it off, but only by becoming monarchs of only the USE and nowhere else. This isn’t like the USA, which had no actual resident landed nobility (they had residents of a high class who owned land, but they weren’t _nobles_) and thus could start from scratch.

  10. Willem Meijer says:

    @4 The Orange bit in the titles of the present-day constitutional head of state of the future Republic of the Netherlands is a title William the Silent inherited fom an uncle. He was a Nassau (in Germany) (Nassau-Dillenburg to be precise). The present head of state of the future Republic of the Netherlands does not in fact descend directly from William the Silent, as his line died out. They stem from what we Dutch call the Friesian Nassau line (Nassau-Dietz), founded by a brother of William the Silent.

    Something else. There is no unified German language at this time, there are dialects that differ widely. Even today someone from the coast of Ostfriesland speaks something verry different from a Bavarian. Compare it to the difference you’d find between say a Canadian and someone from the deepest parts of Louisiana. They all learn the same written language (spelling, grammar), there is a standard pronounciation (as used on the telly) and they might switch to something closer to the standard pronounciation (with a regional accent) when they meet, but there will be misunderstandings. In this timeline there may be radio, but there is no standard pronounciation to use. In this timeline ther is the Luther translation of the Bible (the first book read all over Germany that tried to overcome regionalisms in its spelling and grammar) but there is no standardised spelling nor standardized grammar. There has been some talk of Amideutsch. The naval version of Amideutsch (based on the language of those ‘Van de Waterkant’ (from the shore)) will be unintelligible to someone who learnt his in say Magdeburg.

  11. Roelof says:

    Before the Radio was main stay in the USA the English dialects where flourishing and growing as well. Then the radio came and the development of regional dialects came to abrupt halt. The radio in America made the Mid-Western dialect the prominent one because both the South and the North could understand them on the radio.

  12. Captain Button says:

    Kristine had already told him that her great ambition was to emulate someone named Elkhart and be the first woman to fly an airplane all the way around the world.

    Nitpicking pedantry: Assuming Amelia Earhart is meant here, the spelling is wrong.

    (Of course, this might be intentional on the author’s part, in which case, “never mind”, as Emily Litella would say.)

  13. ET1swaw says:

    Ox seems intent on subordinating the USE to Sweden as a -very- large Dominion. But all the Dominions (Swedish Ingria, Swedish Karelia, Swedish Estonia, Swedish Livonia, and Swedish Prussia) combined probably have a lesser population than SoTF alone ATT.
    I have to disagree heavily about contemplated abdication (accept a constitutional monarchy yes, maybe even a true parlimentary government, but a republic or out and out democracy I don’t think so. The only thing further from reality is absolute Monarchy). He seems another proponent of a ‘soft landing’.
    If you divide Wales from the English crown, you might as well divide the Dominions from Sweden Proper (which includes Finland and Vyborg-Savolinna). So the crown of Archking of the Kalmar Union has at least 5 subordinate crowns (Denmark (which includes those territories lost OTL to Sweden), Norway (including the Lappmark (King of the Northlands: a title G2A’s father tried to usurp fomenting the previous war that Sweden lost to Denmark)), Iceland, Sweden Proper, and the Swedish Dominions).
    IMO Sweden would have more trouble than the USE in accepting the multiplicity of crowns. The USE is -totally- independent of both the Kalmar Union and Sweden and her Dominions (at least its supposed to be). Remember less than 40 years ago, Sweden (whose only Dominion ATT was Estonia) fought a near-civil-war to prevent the King of another country (Sigismund Vasa of the PLC) from claiming the Swedish crown (it also -really- didn’t help that he was a RC trying to claim a devout Lutheran nation). G2A (and by inheritance Kristina) is the now-hereditary head of two USE provinces (Pomerania and Mecklenburg) and due to inherit Lauenberg-Butowland as well as the Monarch of the USE. The Vasa Dynasty saw strengthening of the 2 lower Estates until G2A was forced to return many crown powers to the nobility (managed by Axel) at his early crowning without a Regency. Ulrich is Lutheran, but not Swedish Orthodox Lutheran and 15-16 years older than his bride to be. And both seem too accepting of non-Lutherans (even Anabaptists, RCs, and Jews). Sweden Proper is -extremely- insular.

  14. Robert H. Woodman says:

    @19 – Captain Button

    I really think that the mis-spelling was intentional. It shows that Ulrik is paying attention Kristina, but either he’s not paying complete attention to her (so he mangles the name), or she has mis-heard or mis-read the name in the course of her education on up-time “history”. (Question: Can you really call an event “history” if it happened in the past of the up-time Americans but likely won’t happen at all in the future of the down-time Germans and Swedes? That’s a really hard concept around which to wrap the mind!)

  15. PeterZ says:

    @7 Dave O, lebensraum will have to be addressed considering the growth rates that will happen as a result of better farming methods. Another argument for many sail powered frigates, IMHO, the most powerful one. Ulrik’s observation that germans are a colonizing people suggests that eventually those frigates will be protecting trade routes to Germany from its colonies. This opens another can of worms about the potential treatment of aboriginies living in those potential colonies both in Europe and elsewhere. Yet, without additional space, the german population will outgrow the technology required to make really high population densities tolerable.

    Tough choices ahead and it appears that the combination of power and self interest may force Europe into many of the same decisions as was made in the American’s timeline in the 18th and 19th centuries.

  16. Bret Hooper says:

    @12 Robert H. Woodman: I entirely agree with your analysis of “Elkhart.” But as to your question, is it not equally difficult to wrap one’s mind around the concept of your response to comment #19 that Captain Button hasn’t yet made in OTL, and perhaps never will?

  17. Jeff Ehlers says:

    @14: Or, perhaps, his finger slipped and hit the 9 key instead of the 0 key; they’re right next to each other, and the same finger is used for both.

    It’s a lot easier than to think that he somehow saw into the future to respond to a comment that hadn’t yet been made.

  18. dave o says:

    #13 Peter: I don’t think wooden frigates can carry the size of rifled cannon that Simpson has already produced. There are numerous references in naval fiction about ships too old to fire broadsides. Rifled cannon have higher muzzle velocities than smoothbores, and therefore stronger recoil. Besides, with shell guns, and their much greater destructive capacity, 30-40 gun batteries are not necessary. There is talk about building sloops with armor in the near future. The next step is to build iron or steel framed ships. The British decided on an iron frame for the Warrior in 1859-1860 because it was quicker to build that a wooden one. Of course it will take a while to build up iron founding capacity first. In any event,

    The Haber process for fixing nitrogen has to be well documented in Grantville. There are lots of technical obstacles to using it. but then it will take a long time before Germany’s population increases enough to need lots of nitrogen fertilizer. Do you know whether modern Germany is a net food importer?

    I would think that protecting (and monopolizing) the North Sea, Newfoundland/Nova Scotia/New England fisheries would be the second task of the combined Navy

    Lets’ defer further discussion of ships and colonies until after the civil war. Too speculative for me.

  19. Alejo says:

    Canadian English and Louisiana English are far closer than say Schwaebisch is to Plattdeutsch or Bayerisch is to Hessisch. It’s more like a Canadian trying to converse with a Jamaican or someone else from the West Indies. Another analogy would be perhaps someone from Chicago trying to talk with someone from rural South Africa who possessed a burr.

  20. papertiger says:

    RE: regional language variance
    Yet the USA managed to form a unified country out of a plethora of southern rural dialects, nasel new englanders, uppermidwest Germans speaking German, New York’s babble, southwestern spanish influence, Chinese enclaves and more. ALL this was somehow accomplished before the unifying influence of ‘Chicago Standard’ in broadcast journalism. I think the Germans are up to the task and the more so with radio already beginning to come on line.

  21. Jac says:

    I know its speculative, but chances are colonization are going to go forward as it did in our history. If not at an even more accelerated pace, since they have maps a plenty. It may not occur for 10-20 years but I think that if the USE doesnt expand colonially you will find that we have a French speaking world unless the British/English get there act together.

  22. Valéry says:

    ” There are still many areas of the globe in 1635 that have not been explored yet. Australia and Antarctica have not even been discovered.” : actually I had not realized this biut with all their maps and knowledge about those areas, the Grantville people are actually a bunch of SPOILERS for the down-timers.

  23. c.r. says:

    Having read the Rivers of War series (waiting for the 3rd book, please find a publisher), Eric, assuming that Jackson and others favorably portrayed show his opinions, is not squeamish about the displacement of native peoples…assumes that they will be displaced if they don’t adapt or assimilate. So look for the USE to colonize New World or Australia/New Zealand.

    About German nationalism, surprised that the Deutschlandlied has not shown up (that’s the one with the 1st verse starting “Deutschland, Deutschland über alles”)…it was originally a liberal song supporting a liberal unification of Germany. The 3rd verse, current German national anthem, would fit right in with where the COC’s want to go:

    Unity and justice and freedom
    For the German fatherland!
    For these let us all strive
    Brotherly with heart and hand!
    Unity and justice and freedom
    Are the pledge of fortune;
    |: Bloom in this fortune’s blessing,
    Bloom, German fatherland! :|

    translation from Wikipedia, of course…

  24. PeterZ says:

    @16 Dave O, don’t remember which GG volume it was in but a story taking place in Oxford recounted just how much labor savings modern farming techniques would provide to 17th century aggriculture. The savings on labor alone would make more land viable for farming. Experienced farmers could make a marginal piece of land produce where an inexperienced one could not. So the first step would be to increase the amount of farm land, the next step would be to increase the amount produced per acre/hectare.

    As for frigates, my bad. I meant to say sloops of war. Lots of armoured over-gunned sloops patroling the seaways. These wouldn’t need to be completely iron framed, simply iron reinforced wood frames. The USE will need these to control sea trade and potential excesses in colonizing efforts.

    @19 I suspect so. So then some time in the future we have uptimers going through the angst of re-committing the percieved errors of imperial Europe. This completely inconsequential to the story, just my musings.

  25. Bret Hooper says:

    @17 Jeff: Of course you are right, and I knew it at the time, but I couldn’t resist kidding Robert Woodman a bit. I didn’t expect anyone to take that part of my comment seriously. But something strange is going on with the comment numbers. Captain Button’s comment was #10 when Robert Woodman replied to it, but now it is #12; and Robert Woodman’s comment was #12 then, when I replied to it, and now it is #14; and my comment was #14 when you replied to it, and now it is #16. ??

  26. Robert H. Woodman says:

    @25 — Bret Hooper

    re: Changing comment numbers.

    Blame the Assiti!


  27. Drak Bibliophile says:

    Sorry Robert, but the Assiti aren’t at fault here. [Smile]

    What happens is that the software “holds” some comments for somebody like me to check out.

    When I decide that the comment is OK (not spam etc), I release it to post.

    However, the “comment numbers” are based on when the comment is first created not when when I release it.

    So when I release a comment, the software places it in creation order and *may* have to renumber the comments.

    That’s why, it is a good idea to refer to an earlier comment by the name of the person making the comment.

  28. Drak Bibliophile says:

    C.R., the Rivers of War series will be continued by Baen Books whenever Eric has time to write them.

    As for Eric’s position on displacement of native peoples, IMO you’re partly correct.

    He takes a wide-scale historical position.

    Displacement of “native peoples” always have happened based on our earlist knowledge of history.

    The Celts displaced “native peoples” who didn’t want to be assimulated.

    The Celts were displaced by other peoples who moved into Celtic areas.

    Various American Indian tribes were displaced by other American Indian tribes who moved into a given area.

    To prevent such displacements would take an all-powerful government which I doubt that he’d approve of or a people strong enough to resist such deplacements.

    Mind you, there are stories planned in the 1632 universe may change the OTL pattern in North America.

  29. robert says:

    I may be misremembering (possible), but didn’t the earlier agreement between France, Denmark and England result in England ceding its N. American colonies/claims to France in return for the mercenaries that were occupying London while our friends were in the Tower? And didn’t Mike have a rumor started about gold deposits in Florida (home of malaria and lousy humidity sans air conditioning). So where are the intrepid French versions of Ponce de Leon, etc., now? How can the USE get a foothold in North America?

  30. Drak Bibliophile says:

    Robert, I don’t want to “snerk” here so just remember that the USE is not bound by treaties between France and England.

    Also, the treaty gave France England’s colonies not all of North America. [Wink]

  31. Stanley Leghorn says:

    North America is the true wild card at this time. Have the Spanish already headed up from San Francisco bay looking for the gold fields in California? The Carolinas had a nice gold field but it never produced a big minable deposite. Maybe i will dust off my story about Richelieu sending a small expedition to head up the Mississippi to look for Uranium in the Dakotas. Who owns Egypt right now and might they be digging up Tut? With the snerks the uptimers brought, a lot of things could be happening.

    One big country in NA is unlikely unless the USE is able to grab the entire place like OTL English nearly did.

  32. johan says:

    @31 Stanley Leghorn: It would be interesting if the European powers decided down the line to hold a Berlin Conference (ahem, Magdeburg Conference, ahem) on North America down the line. It really would be in the longterm interest of Europe to see to it that no one nation dominates that continent, as without a contintent-spanning country there will be no behemoth USA to rival Europe in power. Though hoping that the European monarchs will be that farsighted is probably too much.

  33. Alice Collins says:

    Isn’t it strange how life is imitating art at the moment? Will Gabrielle Giffords recover completely from her brain injury? Will G2A? Tune in tomorrow…

  34. robert says:

    @30 Drak, the French already have possession of virtually all of Canada and the territory encompassed by what was/won’t be the Louisiana Purchase, and now the Atlantic region from Canada to Georgia. All that is left is the Southwest and Far West. Russia did not enter N. America until the 1730’s. Now the USE can play Drake to France’s and Spain’s possessions in the Americas but they will have to even bolder than that to counteract their enemies.

  35. Drak Bibliophile says:

    Robert, I’m not going to get into snerk territory.

    However at this time France may have claimed what was the Louisiana Purchase area but “claiming” territory and “holding” territory is two different things.

    The situation isn’t as “clear cut” as you think.

    Of course, both Spain and France may have problems at home that would prevent them from stopping the USE if the USE claims parts of NA.

    You might want to visit the Snerker’s Only conference on Baen’s Bar. There was a fairly recent thread on forthcoming story lines in the 1632 Universe.

    By the way, there is another player involved in getting NA territory than the ones you mentioned. [Evil Grin]

  36. dave o says:

    Re France in North America: I’ve pointed out in previous snippets that 1) the French won’t be real popular in New England, regardless of what happens in Virginia. 2) The Dutch are already in the Hudson Valley. 3) The Swedes started a colony on the Delaware in the late 1660s. The French are NOWHERE thick enough on the ground to hold all they claim. The new Netherland Kingdom is potentially a lot stronger than the Dutch Republic. The Swedes/Germans have the potential to get naval superiority. England is a mess, and France isn’t nearly as well sited to block other powers as England was. The Netherland Kingdom and the USE/Union of Kalmar are on good, if guarded, terms. Either seperately or in concert they could easily defeat the French. We’ll see.

    At this period, the fisheries of Newfoundland/Nova Scotia/New England and tobacco from Virginia (mostly) are the principal resources in North America. Once the Delaware is settled, and the upper Chesapeake, wheat will also become important.

  37. VernonNemitz says:

    I see a comment regarding the problem of time travel and the best way to wrap the language around describing events. I will recommend as the solution (was this never argued about over in the Bar/1632Tech forum?) as that which Heinlein pointed out in his “Time Enough For Love”, of which some copies must have existed in Grantville. Basically, “all nows are equal”, which means that when describing any event in History, even an alternate history, just use the present tense. So, Napoleon is currently battling at Waterloo “over there” in the timelines, see?

  38. Johnny Davis says:


    BC, Oregon, and Washington are unclaimed right now and have basically no Europeans there. Russia still has Siberia to colonize and Spain seems to be worrying more about its European possessions. Georgia is unsettled, the Carolinas are unfounded, Pennsylvania is unsettled, as is much of the Gulf Coast. France might try to claim that area, but right now it’s Terra Nullius. That’s a big part of North America that’s not colonized right now. Remember, the only colonies in North America right now are Spanish colonies in California, New Mexico, and south, English colonies in Maine, Massachusetts, and Connecticut, New Hampshire, and Virginia, and French colonies in Quebec, and Dutch outposts in New York, New Jersey, Delaware, and Connecticut.

    South America is sort of open, as well. Uruguay and much of Argentina are unsettled as is southern Chile.

    So to count, colonization opportunities for the USE are:

    Newfoundland, the Carolinas to Florida, most of the up-time US Gulf Coast, Alaska down to California north of the bay, Australia/New Zealand, parts of Brazil, much of southern South America, and South Africa. There are many other places they could have colonies, but these are the basically unclaimed areas I could think of that were successfully settled by European immigrants OTL close to the ocean for easy access with enough area to support a large immigration population.

    I imagine that the West coast of the US, the Polynesian islands, and Australia/ New Zealand would be the best places to colonize. Less aggravation of other powers and more raw materials in those areas.

  39. robert says:

    @33 Drak. OK, no snerks. Yeah, I saw Virginia DeM’s posting back when.

    There’s always the Native Americans. The Dutch are still in New Amsterdam and won’t/didn’t leave until 10-12 years after the current events. I guess they will not be ceding anything to England now, especially with the political changes in the Lowlands.

  40. frederic says:

    @ 23

    Given that the first stanza says specifically

    Von der Maas bis an die Memel,
    von der Etsch bis an den Belt,
    Deutschland, Deutschland über alles,
    über alles in der Welt!

    which call for a Grossdeutschland ‘ from From the Meuse to the Memel,From the Adige to the Belt’ I doubt it would make much sense to the USE. Just have a look at how many countries would have to be annexed (and which ones and who they belong to!) to get there.

    That song is, among other things, a call for the drang nach Osten (the Memel part) which is going to be anathema to the american part of the USE. I also doubt the Anschluss (Adige part) will be well received. As for the part on annexing Jutland (the belt) and most of the Netherlands (the Maas), I think Christian and Fernando (who are currently allies of the USE) may take objection.

  41. Captain Button says:

    @Stanley Leghorn: Egypt is part of the Ottoman Empire. There is a story in the Gazette about some people who decide to go and find King Tut’s tomb.

  42. Greg Eatroff says:

    East Prussia already included the Hinterland of Memel. No explicit need for a Drang nach Osten there. The push to the Meuse, if you’re talking about land ajacent to the upper Meuse that’s Lorraine, a German-speaking area annexed by France during Louis XIV’s reign (not until the 20th century did the French effectively suppress the German language there). Uniting all German-speaking territory was a major goal of German nationalists in the 19th century.

    I’ve got no explanation for the Belt line, but the rest can be reasonably interpreted as unification of German rather than conquest of non-German lands, given 19th century language patterns.

  43. summertime says:

    @Drak#35re:”another player interested in NA territory”: Possibly you mean an Asian country, such as China, Japan, Korea, even India, casting eyes on the NA West Coast?

  44. johan says:

    @40 frederic & @42 Greg Eatroff
    For the USE to stretch to the Maas river it would need to include the small disparate remnants of the Bishoprics and Archbishoprics in the western Rheinland aswell as the Republic of Essen, all of which are German areas to begin with. They already include the Etsch as Tyrol(which also holds South Tyrol) is a state within the USE. To reach the belt would mean including part of southern Schleswig, another German majority area.

    Even if they ultimately choose not to annex any of these areas there will eventually be disputes about them as it seems inevitable that the rising German nationalism both within and outside the USE will lead to some hard choices having to be made down the line.

    I can only think of three places that will be cause for real trouble:

    1. The eventual question of Schleswig, as it is currently part of Denmark.
    2. Austria, though that really depends on how well the Habsburgs ride the wave of German and non-German nationalism. Religion could also have a big effect here in that depending on the policies of Ferdinand and his successors they could either make the non-Catholics seek to become part of the USE or remain as a separate Austrian nation.
    3. The trickiest area would seem to be the same as it was in our timeline: Poland. The question of what happens to Ducal Prussia could very well be the deciding factor here, as just like in our time that would create an exclave whose existance could be used as justification for a war against Poland. And that’s not even mentioning the large German minority that lives in western Poland. How this current war against Poland concludes will be interesting to say the least.

  45. c.r. says:

    About ‘The German Hymn’, the USE would likely not use the 1st verse just as OTL Germany does not. The 2nd verse about German women and wine probably doesn’t work either. The 3rd verse does…and the tune is rousing…

    Given that nationalistic waves are hard to control, though, I could see someone advocating the unification of all German speaking areas as in the 19th century OTL.

    Brecht, btw, wrote some alternate lyrics that would work too…

  46. The tune we associate with the “Deutschlandlied” is ALREADY in canon as the “Austrian Hymn.” It’s first seen in the opening pages of 1634: The Bavarian Crisis (page 10) where “After the introductory measures, the hairs on Archduchess Maria Anna’s arms stood up.” On page 608, we learn that it will be played at the state funeral of Ferdinand II.
    I suspect, therefore, that “Gott erhaltne Franz den Kaiser” will be the words associated with Haydn’s tune in the 1632verse.

  47. robert says:

    What if the Hayden tune and associated lyrics were replaced by something like the tune of the French anthem (please not the USA one, whose lyrics make no sense in this universe and whose tune is very difficult) or even the current Canadian or Australian one. A new set of lyrics could be commissioned to be written by the GG music folks. That would avoid having to deal with any jingoistic words.

  48. johan says:

    @46 robert
    yeah, because the French anthem will go over well with anyone who is not a CoC firebrand. ;)

    I seem to recall there being a mention of a national anthem in one of the books or Gazettes. There was a competition and the winning song was something new by a down-timer.
    Otherwise another candidate could be Beethoven’s Ode to Joy (the short version as used by the European Union). It’s pleasantly uplifting without any militarism or calls for revolution and could go over well with most of the population.

  49. Robert H. Woodman says:

    @46 – robert

    “The Star Spangled Banner” lyrics would make no sense in this timeline, but the tune is not that bad. It was a well-known British drinking song (To Anacreon in Heaven) long before Key penned his lyrics to it. In fact, I sense quite a bit of irony in our national anthem being based on a British pub tune. In OTL, the tune “A Mighty Fortress Is Our God” has been quite popular. Although the range on To Anacreon is a bit more challenging than it is in Ein feste Berg ist unser Gott, overall the tunes are of comparable difficulty. Therefore, I don’t see why someone couldn’t just write new lyrics to the old USA national anthem.

    That’s my Zwei Pfennige worth!

  50. Robert H. Woodman says:

    I realize my previous post wasn’t quite clear. What I meant to say was that “A Mighty Fortress” was popular among Germans and Swedes in the 1630’s OTL, and I presume that it is popular in the RoF NTL. Since “A Mighty Fortress” is popular ATT and since it is of comparable difficulty to “The Star Spangled Banner”, I don’t believe that too many people in the USE will object to “The Star Spangled Banner” tune being used as the basis for a new national anthem.

    Many people today don’t like “The Star Spangled Banner” because it encompasses a range that is foreign to most modern sung music.

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