1636: The Saxon Uprising — Snippet 13

1636: The Saxon Uprising — Snippet 13

Rebecca looked back to Piazza. “I interrupted you. My apologies.”

Ed waved his hand in a small gesture, dismissing the matter. There hadn’t really been much danger that Hesse-Kassel’s party members would go off half-cocked, but it never hurt to make sure.

“The point I was working my way around to was that while I think it’s true that the SoTF’s provincial military is the most powerful such force in the USE today, I also think it’s mostly irrelevant to the equation when it comes to a possible civil war.”

The young mayor of Hamburg looked surprised. “Why is that?”

Before Piazza could answer, Werner von Dalberg did it for him. “Bavaria,” he said tersely.

Von Dalberg was the FoJP’s central leader in the Oberpfalz — or the Upper Palatinate, as it was known in English. His expression was grim. “Gustav Adolf pulled Báner and his army out of the Oberpfalz in order to send him to stabilize Saxony. Well, and good, so long as the emperor himself was still alert and functional. After the beating Báner gave them last year — the man’s a swine and a brute, but he’s also a very capable general — there wasn’t much chance that the Bavarians would start anything again soon. Duke Maximilian has a lot of wounds to lick.”

He shook his head. “But with Gustav Adolf incapacitated, and if a civil war breaks out, I think it’s quite likely that Maximilian will attack the Oberpfalz again. And all we have to resist them is a single regiment under the command of Colonel Simpson — he’s the admiral’s son — and some artillery units.” Her glanced at Piazza. “If Maximilian does invade, we’ll have to call on the State of Thuringia-Franconia to send troops to drive him back.”

“Which we’ll have to do for a lot of reasons,” Piazza chimed in, “and defeating the Bavarian army will require just about everything we’ve got.”

The president of the SoTF looked around the table. “The point being, ladies and gentlemen, that if Oxenstierna does launch a civil war, you’re on your own as far as military forces go. I doubt very much if I’ll be able to do more than hold my own province solid and defend the Oberpfalz.”

Von Dalberg smiled. “On the positive side, the Oberpfalz is already leaning toward us. Rest assured that if the Bavarians attack because the Swedes pulled out their troops and Mr. Piazza comes to the rescue, the prospects for our party thereafter will be splendid. Assuming we’ve survived the civil war, of course.”

A little laugh went around the table. There wasn’t much humor in it, though. The implications if the SoTF’s army was neutralized by the Bavarians were…

Not good. The Fourth of July Party also controlled Magdeburg province, but its military forces were quite small. The dominance of the Committees of Correspondence in that province, especially in the capital, meant that there was no real need for a powerful provincial military to maintain order. Magdeburg province was quite homogenous, too, both in social as well as geographical terms. In that respect, it was quite unlike the sprawling SoTF, with its variegated terrain and social mosaic.

Given that reality, those CoC activists in the province inclined to join the military volunteered for the USE’s national army. On a per capita basis, Magdeburg province provided a larger percentage of the USE army’s enlisted ranks than any other province in the nation.

The relationship between the Fourth of July Party and the Committees of Correspondence was complex, and varied some from one region to another. Taken as a whole, the relationship was quite close. Almost unanimously, CoC members voted for the FoJP candidates in any election except in those few places where they ran candidates of their own. In return, once elected to office FoJP politicians were generally supportive of those programs and initiatives desired by the CoCs of their area.

But there were always some frictions, also. As a very rough rule of thumb, CoC activists tended to view their FoJP counterparts as shaky-kneed moderates prone to excessive compromise, and FoJP members looked upon the CoCs as being often impractical and unrealistic firebrands.

Both views were stereotypes, but like many stereotypes they contained some kernels of truth.

“The thing that worries me the most,” said Rebecca, “is that the CoC success in crushing the anti-Semites after the Dreeson murder, especially combined with the events in Mecklenburg –”

The populace of that hardscrabble Baltic province had rebelled during the post-Dreeson Incident period, and driven out its aristocracy.

“– has made them over-confident of their own military strength. It is one thing to defeat the sort of disorganized or hastily organized para-military forces they encountered during Operation Krystalnacht. It is another thing entirely to confront regular military forces. Even leaving aside the Swedish army under Oxenstierna’s direct control, there are a number of significant provincial forces which we can assume will support the chancellor’s counter-revolution.”

“Can you summarize?” asked Helene Gundelfinger.

“If I may,” interjected Ed Piazza, looking at Rebecca. “I’ve just finished examining the question.”

She nodded and leaned back, trying not to smile. She was quite sure that the president and vice-president of the SoTF were operating in tandem here and that Helene’s question has been pre-arranged.

Piazza and Gundelfinger got along very well.

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24 Responses to 1636: The Saxon Uprising — Snippet 13

  1. Peter says:

    I wondered when someone was going to mention that.
    I can’t imagine Maximillian NOT being tempted to meddle in the USE. Admitting the Tyrol to the country (and the Tyrol is separated from the rest of the USE by Bavaria)was essentially a statement that the USE plans to annex Bavaria someday (or Max will read it that way). I expect him to either attack the Tyrol or the Oberphalz any time he thinks he can.

  2. Ed says:

    Actually, Tyrol and the rest of the USE have a common border.

    In 163x, Bavaria is not as big as the 20th Century German Bundesland. Specifically, Augsburg is already an Imperial city in the USE, and the territory of the Bishopric of Augsburg (the present-day Bavarian administrative region of Swabia) would be part of the future state of Swabia (or Wurttemberg).

    That makes the USE territories contiguous with Tyrol, and there would be reasonable lines of communication from Augsburg and Ulm into Tyrol, though the easiest road would go through the modern Austrian province of Vorarlberg. Meanwhile the young princes of Tyrol are mentioned as inheriting the Habsburg lands in SW Germany.

    These issues likely will be explored more in Wars on the Rhine, though of course Maximillian will see a threat regardless.

  3. robert says:

    @2 Yes. See the maps in The Baltic War. And where is Gen. Horn?

  4. laclongquan says:

    From 1635 Bavarian Crisis Maximillian is looking at a fullblown peasant revolt on his hand sometime very soon. Maybe even NOW. His government is in disarrayed with many fleeing for their lives. His people is under great stress. His foreign allies are cutting their ties: The Vatican connection is dried up due to his disapproval of the appointment of Cardinal Protector and is also in disarrayed due to the two Popes, The Austrian alliance is severed due to his madhandling of Princess Maria Anna.

    On another hand, Maxi got a fullblown madness going for him so who know what will he do?

  5. Mike S says:

    In 1635, in the “real” world, the Swedish Army was not “Swedish”. Certainly there was a hard core of Swedish regiments, but the rest, the majority were made up of English, Scottish and, mostly, “German” regiments. I would be very surprised that the English and Scots hadn’t begun drifting back to England and Scotland with the crisis there and the incipient civil war. Not to mention, Charles had to get his mercenaries from somewhere and the Dutch and Swedish service is the most likely sources. It would be interesting to see how far the CoC had penetrated the “German” regiments NCOs and rank and file, not to mention the camp followers. Keep in mind to the tension between royal, noble and local power in Sweden. At this time, the royal power was “allied” (more or less) with the provincial gentry and merchants against the nobles. It would be the disaray in the House of Vasa starting with Katrina that eventually led to the power of the nobles increasing and the deposition of Gustaf V and his replacement by Bernadotte. Which led to increasing liberalism in Sweden and the loss of power by the nobles. There is every chance the Oxenstiern’s actions extending to Swedish territory would create tensions there. And then there’s the Union of Kalmar II. Christian of Denmark is the leading noble behind the King and the Princess and her consort. He’s not about to be lead about by Oxenstiern. In fact, a civil war would be the perfect opportunity to revise the Union in his favor.

  6. Alejo says:

    Who is Katrina? Keeps popping up from time to time. I have assumed all this time that people were typing Kristina’s name in wrong. Have I made an error somewhere? Is this another character I’ve missed somehow?

  7. Robert H. Woodman says:

    If Maximilian attacks, then the Landgravine might send Hesse-Kassel’s troops to assist the SoTF to defend the USE. That would strengthen ties between Hesse-Kassel, the SoTF, the FoJP, and the CoC (maybe not so much there) while keeping Hesse-Kassel out of the civil war between Oxenstierna and company and the forces of democracy in the USE led by Mike Stearns and the FoJP. I think this is what Drak was alluding to in the previous snippet.

  8. Jac says:

    That hasnt been mentioned yet. The Danish army is still intact and since the Prince has weighed in on Kristina’s side I’m pretty sure that Christian would support him since that would increase Denmark’s power in the Union and secure the union for his decedents.

  9. Summertime says:

    Descendents are those who come after, in the future. Decedents are dead people, in the past.

  10. robert says:

    @6 Alejo, I think Mike S. mistyped Katrina and meant Kristina. It was Cristina/Kristina, who was the last of the Vasa line to rule Sweden. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christina_of_Sweden

  11. Peter says:

    @2 – Well shame on me for not having checked the maps before I spoke. Tyrol does have common border with the rest of the USE. It also looks like Bavaria is about 2/3 encircled by the USE, which can’t make Maximillian happy. Looking at the map, I realize how critical either Switzerland or the Tyrol is for trade with Venice. The earlier speculations about possible future growth of the USE come to mind. I note that Germany has now had about three years of relative internal peace, compared to the OTL 30-Years war. To what extent has that stabilization and economic expansion enabled the USE to consolidate internally? The political conversations seem to imply that the answer is “a lot, but not quite enough yet”.

  12. Ed Schoenfeld says:

    @6 Your assumptions were correct, for those of us who are syllabically challenged.

  13. Sean Maxwell says:

    Speaking of syllabic challenges, why is “Kristallnacht” mis-spelled as “Krystalnacht” in canon? Is it a Nazi-aversion thing?

  14. Beata says:

    Little off-topic about fuel for APC from yesterday comments. PLC may develop oil fields. First in Bobrka (OTL world’s first oil field – and still exist) and second in Boryslaw (Ukraine).

    “The wells were sunk manually, with shovel and pick. The cross-section of such hand-dug well was a square, usually 1.2 × 1.2 meters, and its walls were lined with beams. It was equipped with a winch to lower the diggers and remove the soil. Some inventive fans were used to supply the fresh air and prevent the action of toxic gases. Initially, such wells were sunk up to 15 meters, then 60 meters. One of them, named Izydor, reached astounding 150 meters.” source Museum Bobrka site http://www.bobrka.pl/en/oil-field-in-bobrka/

    Boryslaw http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boryslav

  15. Matthew says:


    I hope it was unintentional. If it’s a Nazi aversion thing it fails miserably and just makes the author (De whatever her name is in this case) look like they have a guilty conscience. You’re not fooling anyone, man up and give it the correct spelling. If it’s going to stay like this they might as well go all out and introduce a politician named Hilter.

  16. robert says:

    @13 Who knows? German spelling was not really formalized, I should say standardized, until the Duden dictionaries were published in the early 20th century. Another reform was made around 1996. So what was the 17th century spelling? Did crystal even exist back then or was the term expropriated from uptimer documents?

  17. Drak Bibliophile says:

    Matthew, this is Eric Flint’s book with no co-writer.

    As for the spelling mistake, this is a pre-final edit version of the book so words (especially non-English words) can/will be mis-spelled.

  18. Sean Maxwell says:

    Actually, I was expecting to hear that “tuckerization” and not “oops” was involved. THE_DREESON_INCIDENT [first] canonized this particular spelling, and used it consistently.

    I don’t believe that it’s “standard spelling” for 17th-century German, because “lack of standards” was canonized in _1632_ and because the rest of the German in canon is [more or less] _20th-century_ German.

    I don’t particularly care for the idea that it’s “Amideutsch” because that would imply that someone has developed the vocabulary, spelling, and grammar for “Amideutsch” and has not shared them with us.

  19. robert says:

    @17 Oh, well. It is just a story.

  20. laclongquan says:

    Amideutsch is a bastardized infant of English grammar, lots of borrowed german words, and the stripped shortened form of those. No standard accent. No standard, period.

    The term crystal night was used when Mike, and his jewish spymaster, were discussing with many CoC leaders about the profiles of anti-jew extreme groups in and around USE, in 1635 Dreeson Incident. So we can safely assume they use Amideutsch.

  21. Sean Maxwell says:

    @18: Oops, I didn’t make my point. Whatever Amideutsch is, it was created by the two writers whose work and word is automatic canon. However, nobody _else_ knows what Amideutsch is, unless _someone_ has a copy of a vocabulary, spelling, and grammar specification created by one or both of those two writers.

    Having heard many Germans/Americans trying to speak English/German, I suspect the opposite of what you guessed: that Amideutsch has a German grammar, with borrowed American words. That’s because people in general learn a new vocabulary faster than they learn a new grammar.

    Chapter 67 of _THE_DREESON_INCIDENT_ is a little confusing, because Gunter _translates_ “Krystalnacht” to “Crystal Night” without any indication of _from_ which language he’s translating, or _to_ which language he’s translating.

  22. Johnny Davis says:

    @21: I imagine it has english grammar features because German grammar is more complicated than english grammar. For example, I wouldn’t be surprised if Amideustch had only one gender and got rid of a lot of the cases of German. German base with stripped down German grammar and a lot of english loanwords. It would basically be a creole.

  23. Tweeky says:

    @20 My understanding is that Amideutch is the result of several different dialects of low-German being combined very much like the way Angle, Saxon and Jutish were combined during the 5th century to create old-English with some modern English and Swedish words thrown into the mix. Basically Amideutch is a 17th century Anglo-Saxon analogue. I’m wondering if in the non-fiction section of the Grantville gazette if someone has done an analysis of the development of Amideutch?

  24. Greg Eatroff says:

    You’ve got several thousand Americans and several million Germans forming the new language/dialect. German will predominate in vocabulary and grammar, with American English supplying loan words, primarily for government and and technological innovations. You’d likely get some grammatical simplification of German — for instance Amideutsch plurals will likely settle down more firmly into the -n or -en ending the way English plurals settled into the -s or -es pattern after the Viking invasions. The structure will remain essentially German, though.

    It’s important to remember though that there are powerful forces for preserving German as it is, though — the use of a German-language bible throughout Protestant regions, for instance.

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