1635: The Eastern Front — Snippet 41

1635: The Eastern Front — Snippet 41


Studying the mob packed into the open area south of Dresden’s Residenzschloss, the seat of the Saxon Electors, Noelle Stull thought John George was smart to have gotten out of the city as quickly as he did. According to the reports she and Eddie Junker had gotten, the Elector had left the night before just about the same time Noelle and her party had arrived in Dresden. He’d left with all of his family members still in the city. Apparently, that only consisted of his wife Magdalene Sibylle and their youngest son Moritz. All three of the older boys — Johann Georg, August and Christian — had been with von Arnim’s army which had been defeated in the recent battle of Zwenkau. No one in Dresden seemed to know whether or not they had survived the debacle.

If they had, Noelle thought they’d be wise to stay out of the city as well. Dresdeners didn’t seem to be as furious with the Elector as the residents of Saxony’s rural districts, from what she could tell. But they were obviously angry enough to form an impromptu lynch mob should the occasion arise.

That left the Elector’s three surviving daughters: Sophia Eleanora, Maria Elizabeth, and the mother’s namesake, the eighteen-year-old Magdalene Sibylle. None of them were anywhere near Saxony, however. The two older girls had married noblemen living in the western parts of the Germanies and now resided there. The youngest had just married the Danish crown prince Christian.

She whistled softly. Eddie cocked an eye at her. “What?”

“I was just thinking what a royal mess of a succession crisis we’re likely to have, assuming Gustav Adolf unseats John George entirely.”

Eddie frowned. “Why? He’d disqualify all the sons from the succession too.”

“Sure. But that still leaves the three daughters — each and every one of whom, I remind you, is married to a loyal subject of the emperor. Assuming we can refer to Prince Christian as a ‘loyal subject,’ which may be questionable but simply raises other problems.”

Eddie thought about it. “Bigger problems, actually. Gustav Adolf can shrug off Hesse-Darmstadt and Holstein-Gottorp’s claims easily enough. But if there’s no one else in line to inherit Saxony, you can bet that King Christian of Denmark will insist the children of his daughter-in-law should. And Gustav Adolf can’t ignore him so readily.”

Denise Beasley piped up. “Piece of cake. Throw out all the royal bums and set up a republic.”

From the self-satisfied look on her face, the girl would have popped bubble gum by way of emphasis. Had she possessed any bubble gum.

She didn’t, of course. Bubble gum had long since gone the way of Ben & Jerry’s ice cream and Bic cigarette lighters. But her friend Minnie Hugelmair made up for it by spitting onto the cobblestones. She did that with a skill and assurance that properly belonged to a wizened old farmer.

“I agree,” she said firmly. “Just get rid of the shitheads.”

The teenage down-timer had lost an eye two years earlier in a brawl started by religious students. Grantville’s then-mayor Henry Dreeson had given her his uncle Jim’s glass eye to make up the loss as best as possible. He’d then been murdered himself, just a short time ago. The crime was presumed to have been committed by other religious fanatics.

The long and the short of all that history was that insofar as such a thoroughly non-theoretical person as Minnie Hugelmair could be said to have an ideology, it was awfully simple and clear cut. Get rid of all kings and nobles. Squash all religious zealots. Support the common folk. Support good music. (The last being the influence of her mentor, the old up-time folk singer Benny Pierce.)

She and Denise Beasley saw eye to eye on just about everything, except when they faced each other from Minnie’s bad side. Then they saw eye to glass eye on just about everything.

Noelle was fond of both girls. Which was a good thing, given that she sometimes felt like drowning them.

“It’s not that simple,” she said, in perhaps the thousandth futile effort to instill an appreciation for nuance in the minds of two teenage girls whose view of the world was about as nuanced as that of wolverines.

Eddie just grinned. As well he might, Noelle thought sourly, given that Denise was his girlfriend and had an approach to romance that also had about as much nuance as a wolverine. On any other member of the weasel family, especially minks.


“You’re sure of that?” Tata asked sharply. For a pretty young woman on the short and plump side, she had a surprisingly ferocious manner when she was in the mood. The young farm boy she was interrogating flinched a little, even though he really had nothing to fear.

Anna Piesel assumed that was the result of her CoC training. In point of fact, it was the product of Tata’s upbringing as a tavern-keeper’s daughter. She’d been pretty since she was thirteen, short all her life, and had the sort of plumpness that went with very well-filled bodices. By the time she was fifteen, she’d learned how to intimidate just about any male. Certainly young ones.

“Yes, I’m sure,” he insisted. He turned and pointed to the southwest. “We saw him. You can’t miss that great big carriage he fancies.”

Tata and Anna turned to follow the finger. Of course, they couldn’t really see anything because of the crowded houses. But Anna had no difficulty picturing the landscape beyond Dresden.

“He must be headed for Bavaria,” she said.

Tata frowned. “Poland’s a lot closer. The terrain’s easier too, I think.”

“Yes, it is. A lot easier. To get into Bavaria he’s got to pass through the Vogtland, the Erzgebirge and the Bohemian Forest.” Now Anna frowned. “Stupid to try to do that in a carriage, though.”

“He could always swap the carriage for horses when need be. But why would he go that way at all? Why not head for Poland? King Wladyslaw would certainly give him sanctuary. Duke Maximilian probably would too, but who knows what that crazy Bavarian might do?”

They both turned to stare at the farm boy. Who, for his part, looked about as unhappy as a sixteen year old boy possibly could when he was the subject of close scrutiny by two good-looking young women.

“I don’t know,” he said, almost whining. “How am I supposed to know what an Elector thinks?”

Tata and Anna now looked at each other. The boy’s point was reasonable enough, after all.

“Maybe something’s stopping him,” ventured Anna. “I don’t know. Whatever. Maybe they sent out cavalry patrols.”

Tata decided she was probably right. She turned back to the farm boy.

“You’re sure that’s the way he went?” Seeing the hapless expression on his face, she waved her hand. “Never mind. We’ll take your word for it.”

She looked around. Spotting the towers of the Elector’s palace not too far distant, she pointed to them. “Up there.”

Anna looked doubtful. “How…?”

Tata started striding in that direction. “There’ll be a way,” she said, with the self-confidence of a tavern-keeper’s daughter assuring a patron that if he didn’t concentrate on his drinking instead of her rump he would soon be in an ocean of misery.


So it proved. The guards from the city militia who had appointed themselves to maintain order and prevent looting were no match for Tata’s will. She got through them in less than a minute — in fact, she even got three of them to serve her and Anna for guides.

“I need the highest place in the palace.” She dug into her pack and brought forth a short wave radio transmitter. “We sent one of these to Georg Kresse a while ago. He should have it by now. But I don’t know how good the reception will be, in those mountains.”

The militiamen were suitably impressed by the up-time device. Without argument, they led the two women to the tallest tower in the Residenzschloss.

Tata had to consult her notebook to get the Morse code right. She was too much of a novice to have more than a few letters memorized. But the message wasn’t all that long anyway.



The reception in the Vogtland was quite good, as in happened. But it still took Wilhelm Kuefer a lot longer to translate the message than it had taken Tata to send it. His knowledge of Morse was completely theoretical, to begin with. And secondly, he didn’t have Tata’s general familiarity with up-timers and their peculiar gadgetry.

But, eventually, he got it translated. No sooner had he finished than he said: “He’ll have to swap out the carriage for horses. No way he can get to Bavaria unless he does.”

Kresse’s smile was as cold as a Vogtland winter. “We’ll spot any party that size as soon as it enters our territory. After that, it won’t matter what transportation he’s gotten his hands on. Anything will get you into hell.”

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33 Responses to 1635: The Eastern Front — Snippet 41

  1. jeff bybee says:

    what is the date the book is comming out? thankyou for the snippits but in some ways l its like livi ng on water licked from a sponge when you want to chug a gallon.

  2. robert says:

    @1 October 5, 2010.

  3. robert says:

    @1 Actually more like 3 drips a week.

  4. jeff bybee says:

    BTW @ 9 of comments #40 about jeff the milioneer not having bullits for his uptime pistle. even more so why would he not carry the pump shotgun in a saddle holster. I know that in even the french foren legion. officer did not carry buts but insteed a whip becauser they were to lead not fight but I think ( would think) that americans are beyond that kind of thinking infact was it not common in the last 60 years for line officer to be armed exactly like their men so that snipers would not pick them out? further where I be going into battle I think I should like to be able to be able to do more than just tell others what to do.

  5. dave o says:

    How come Noelle, Eddie, Denise and Minnie are in Dresden? The last I heard they were working in Bohemia for Wallensten.

  6. Jason says:

    @4 well Lets say Jeff does have the pump shot gun well… when he tangled with the hussar he wasnt on his horse or near it from the way the snippet was written.

  7. Todd Bloss says:

    I can understand, to some degree, Jeff not carrying the shotgun; it’s a very big, very conspicuous piece of uptime hardware and carrying it while trying to lead, mostly CoC influenced, troops would be just a tad too elitist. However, a pistol, something an officer is assumed to carry anyway, would be a lot less obvious. Most troops wouldn’t even know it was an uptime piece unless he had to take it out of it’s holster.

    I know this seems like nitpicking, but it’s a big enough hole in the byplay’s story to distract me from the Torstensson/Stearns storyline, that should be the main focus of the chapter.

  8. Frederic says:

    In the french army, and i assume in the legion also, officers carry thé same weapon as troops, that is famas, when on thé battlefied or in risk of fire, for self-défense.

  9. Mike S says:

    1. This is the 17th century. The range and rate of fire has not reached the point to which tactics require dispersal and concealment, especially for officers and NCOs. But you don’t need shiny insignia or pistols to ID leaders to snipers. The guy that leads from the front (and any company grade officer or NCO worth his salt will) gets shot. In the 17th century, however, it was the responsibility of officers to manage their troops, mainly in the areas of formation, manuever and fire. They had to get out to the front and sides of a formation to do that. They also couldn’t be distracted by getting involved in the fire fight. Washington armed his company grade officers with spontoons so that they could defend themselves and concentrate on their real missions, not get distracted by the complex steps of loading and firing a muzzle loading weapon. NCOs were stationed at the side and in back of formations and carried halberds, spontoons and half-pikes for this same reason, they could use the pole arms to push troops into line from the back, while they managed the pace and tightness of the formation and fire control from the ends of the ranks. The officers and NCOs in the back could also push any laggards forward and deal with runners. Officers also had to be instantly recognizable by their uniforms and their arms so that the troops would respond immediately to orders or rally on them when the formation became disordered. As I pointed out before, while battalion commanders would normally be dismounted, at least the battalion adjutant would stay mounted to monitor the battalion, transmit the commanders orders and carry those orders personally around the battalion. What’s missing here is that a battalion commander in the 17th century would have a personal guard, usually two to four veterans. Also, there would be a drummer and/or bugler with him to transmit his orders. Well trained battalions could manuever simply to the drum commands. Finally, the battalion commander would also usually be posted near the battalion colors so that the men could see him and so messangers from the regimental/brigade commander could find him. That would mean that the color guard would also be near him, again a group of four to eight veterans. Jeff must have really been lost to be where a single hussar could ride him down.

  10. Michael says:

    @5: I thought Wallenstein was still on the ‘bad guy’ list… last I saw him he was taking fire from Julie Simms. Sigh… I’m enjoying this book and have purchased the Webscription for it, but I’m also getting rather frustrated. I’ve found the side stories by Dennis to be passable, but DeMarc unreadable. I don’t want to have to wade through that stuff to understand who these characters are and what they’re doing.

  11. Drak Bibliophile says:

    Michael, check out “The Wallenstein Gambit” by Eric Flint in the _Ring Of Fire_ collection.

    While he’s still not a “nice guy”, he has joined the ranks of the “good guys”.

  12. robert says:

    @5 No, they were sent to Dresden by Nasi in an early snippet.

    @10 & 11
    And Morris Cohen was sent to Prague to work with Wallenstein to organize the Jews (and others) to form an effective fighting force & to prevent the Chmielnicki massacre. I think all the Prague stuff from the GGs will be organized into one book and the story will be completed. Go see DeMarce’s Snerker on the Bar. As far as whose writing is good and whose isn’t (your taste matches many others), the Baen ebooks are only $6.00 tax free. And the Public Library is even cheaper…

  13. Ken says:

    All of this complaining about the Grantville Gazette and how some writers just don’t stack up is giving me a head ache. 1632 has turned into a new universe and Eric, etc. has opened it to creative and clever forces to expand upon it. Most of you reading this are probably too young to remember the “Thieves World” books, but they were based upon a similar premise; create a universe and invite writers in to create characters and build out the series. The same arguments happened back then… “I don’t like so-and-so as a writer, so I skip his/her stories and now I don’t understand the references that thus-and-so is writing about.” Read the main books, read the Gazette, it is creating a fully fleshed universe that the main writers are using to help their stories along. I resisted the Gazette on-line until the last book came out and Eric said they wouldn’t be printing them fully any longer. So I subscribed and have read every single story and I’m not unhappy about it. Sure, some writers are not people I’d buy novels from, but the 1632 universe is fun and entertaining and even if I occasionally have to read a sentence more than once to understand the syntax, so be it. Arguments about politics, technology, religion, etc. are a part of life! Live it; and on with the show!

  14. dave o says:

    @12 Ok, They were sent by Nasi in snippet 29. Thanks.

    @11 Yeah, I found V. DeMarce hard to read until I realized what she’s trying to do. It’s called introducing a realistic level of complexity. This is something which Flint would approve;- see his writings on history. He limits himself to a relatively few characters and a relatively clear plot line probably because he knows his audience. But he knows that it ain’t that simple. Anyone who doesn’t like her writing or anyone else’s, the answer is simple: don’t read it, but please don’t gripe.

  15. Michael says:

    @13: It’s not her structure I dislike, it’s her basic craft as a writer. A writer of fiction is a storyteller, first and foremost. Perhaps others like her prose and narrative; I find it better suited to a textbook. And I’d never gripe about her writing if Eric Flint (who, BTW, is a MASTER storyteller) wasn’t almost forcing me to read her to completely understand the characters in his book.

    Cost is so little as to be immaterial. It’s having to read a writer I would otherwise avoid to stay up to date on a series timeline. I’m not a big fan of short fiction in general… I like to sink my teeth into things. I’ve read most (not all) of the Honorverse short fiction anthologies. Weber doesn’t make the structural mistake of MAKING me read them to know what’s going on in the Honor mainline. And when he does make me read them (Crown of Slaves, Torch of Freedom) he collaborates with a top-notch author that I’d read anyway.

    I’ll grab the Wallenstein Gambit. A quick search shows it’s written by Flint himself. Is there a resource list anywhere on the Bar or FifthImperium that details other ‘critical’ short fiction in the series?

  16. Cindy Curry says:

    It is not a structural mistake, it was a structural choice. You are missing the point that Eric Fint wanted the 1632 universe to be interconnected and messy. That’s what the world is like.

  17. robert says:

    @15 There is a resource list. See Eric Flint’s at
    and take a look in
    There are really only three series in the Gazettes that I truly enjoy reading. The one that starts with The Wallenstein Gambit, the one called Butterflies in the Kremlin and David Carrico’s series about a group of musicians. Some of the other writers are OK, and some are, to me, boring, which included most of the Ram stuff. So I read the Gazettes in between publication or rereading of any one of Eric’s books or Weber’s books or Miller’s and Lee’s Liaden books or anything by Bujold. Other authors are read as the fancy takes me.

  18. Riley Allen says:

    @15 Michael, I think you will really like WG. It is classic Eric Flint and very good. (IMHO)

  19. Riley Allen says:

    @14 dave o, I think Eric would agree with you regarding Virgina DeMarce but I think he also understands the need to tell a story that is accessible to the reader. The Trojan War was undoubtedly much more complicated and nuanced than Homer presented it but his story has lasted 3000 years because it is a great job of storytelling. I am sure that you know this as well as I do. In my opinion, DeMarce’s inclusion in the canon because of Eric’s great admiration for her and her viewpoint is the single biggest weakness in the 16XX world. Michael is correct, DeMarce is virtually unreadable and the very things that attract me to the 16XX books are what I do not find in her writings. Eric Flint is a great storyteller, Virgina DeMarce is an archivist.

  20. Virgil says:

    I am sure V. DeMarco is not going to get upset with your comment. She has testify before government committees, agency and others as she is a foremost geneological historian. And she need to be like a textbook. The facts and only the facts. lol

    I dont like the Butterflie Story as much. I wish Jose Clavell had more works accepted. The WG is good, and I like the Anacondoa Project whic is encroaching on this story here. and will probably never be completed as a single story as Eric is pulling parts of it to include in this story

  21. Drak Bibliophile says:

    Virgil, Eric is planning to have Anacondoa Project published as a Novel.

  22. eqdoktor says:

    Regarding V. DeMarce, this may be a non-PC remark to make on this blog but I have to say it. V. DeMarce makes time travel back to 1634 boring. There I have said it! In by itself, the premise alone would just sell the book, but she effectively kills everything by making it all a plodding textbook on the genealogy of uninteresting characters. She is a boring writer there is all there is to it. Her last book, “1635: The Tangled Web” was completely unreadable and believe me, I tried very hard. While her supporters may require me to write an entire thesis to support my opinion, she just fails the taste test for me – “You don’t need to eat the whole egg to know its rotten” and I plodded thru more than half of 1635 before I gave up and skipped to the end.

    PS: Can I get a refund on the book?

  23. Mike S says:

    Another problem is that “combined arms” was not invented by Napoleon. The concept goes back to Thutmose and Sargon. In the 17th century, the Swedish system would have its “brigades” accompanied by light artillery. Remember the “leather” guns? A division, which would have been a new level of command in the 17th century, as the first combined arms divisions were created by de Broglie in 1761, would have consisted of three to four brigades, with a total of 9 to 12 battalions. From this period (1630s) to the late wars of Napoleon, an infantry regiment or brigade would be accompanied by a number of light (3pder, 4pder and/or 6pdr) guns, usually 2 per regiment or battalion. Until about the 1830s (except for the British from 1793), solid shot and canister would have been their primary ammo. Case (shrapnel) was added and then shells from about the 1820s. In those armies and during those periods when such “regimental” guns fell out of favor, a division would usually be assigned an equivalent number of light artillery batteries (12-18 guns and howitzers). As such, one would expect that Stearn’s division would have had 12 to 18 light 4pdr “Swedish” bronze smooth bore muzzle loading guns assigned at divisional level or attached to the brigades and battalions. These would have been pulled (as would their ammo caissons or wagons) by sufficient horses to move the guns at the pace of a human jogg or trot, since the gunners would trot beside the guns, at least those that didn’t ride the caissons. If “uptime” technology was applied, one would expect to see at a minimum 6pdr guns along the clean design of the Ordnance guns of 1861 and 12pdr howitzers in bronze, still smooth bore and muzzle loading. The 6pdr could fire shot, shell and case to about 1500yds, canister to 350yds and the howitzer, shell and case to about 1000yds and canister to about 300yds. With sufficient time (1632 to 1635 is enough?), the batteries could be armed with 12pdr light guns of the “Napoleon” type, firing shot, shell and case to 1700yds and canister to 400yds. The bottom line though is that there is no mention of artllery at all in the story, when even at this early period, more mobile guns were being introduced that were an integrated part of any 17th century army.

  24. Blackmoore says:

    @22,23 but as we’ve seen before Eric isn’t going to spend a lot of text on the minutia of the acutal battle – only the parts involving the cast list he has defined for his story arc.

    That’s a good thing. It’s the balance that makes it a good story, and not tangent that provides the history or technical details.

    I don’t mind DeMarce – but it does feel like a (very well written) history text; and I have to be in the right mood for that. This is a nice tangled mess with life beyond the text and that’s why I enjoy these books.

  25. Summertime says:

    V. DeMarce needs to be read for what she is, not faulted for what she is not. She is an historian, writing alternate history, not an action/adventure techno/military writer. She writes mostly about the every day lives of the bit players in the saga rather than the dashing adventures of the major characters. However, the RAM REBELLION, and the TANGLED WEB, I agree, had characters and situations I read only for future reference. I quickly gave those books to the Public Library. The books in this series I really do not care for are the ones set in Italy, about Gallileo, the Pope, and that Grantville family and their doings. It’s not that the writing was sub-par; it was actually pretty good. It’s just that I think of the focus in the series as Germany, northern Europe, etc. It is good to have forays to other places, for chapters or short stories, but not whole books. Read everything you can in 16xx land for what it is, and for future reference.But don’t dwell on the kids in business, hermits taking in widows, singers and dancing girls, etc.

  26. Summertime says:

    @ Drak B.: What is the background of the name ANACONDA? When I think of that I picture a large South American snake, and I’m sure one of those is involved.

  27. Drak Bibliophile says:


    Quote from Episode One of Anaconda Project

    His first impression never changed. The map could also have been titled How Little Bohemia Became an Anaconda.

    Indeed, the “Bohemia” that the top map projected into the future did look like a constrictor, albeit a fat one. On the west, serving for the serpent’s head, lay Bohemia, Moravia and Silesia. Then, came a neck to the east, in the form a new province that Wallenstein had labeled “Slovakia.” Presumably, he’d picked the name from one of the future history books he’d acquired. Which was all fine and dandy, except that in the here and now there was no country called “Slovakia.” What there was in its place was the region of the Austrian empire known as the northern part of “Royal Hungary,” the rump of Hungary that had been left to it by the Ottoman Turks after their victory over the Kingdom of Hungary at the Battle of Mohács in 1526.

    End Quote

  28. Brian Stewart says:

    I’ve said it before. DeMarce, I find almost unreadable. Almost. It took me a second attempt, about seven months after I bought The Tangled Web, to actually read it. Fine, that is her and Eric’s prerogative to have her write on the everyday things and people. Personally, if I wanted to be involved in such miniuta I would tune in the Soaps on TV. But that’s me. Others may find her just their cup of tea. To each their own.

  29. Phillip Chesson says:

    I recall that someone complained that The Dreeson Incident “Reads like the Grantville phone book.” I think that sums up her writing style.

  30. jeff bybee says:

    @22 funny I enjoyed the tangled web very greatly as well as the dresden insident I almost wish she was not so terse. the part where martin wrangeral tells his sister he can’t get married because he already has three wives I thought was great and when she Asks how many other reasons he wants to stay on the road and he answers 8 but one of the wives is pregnant again. I had to read it twice to figer out he ment that he had 8 childern by the three wives. I also loved the relationship between ron stone and his girlfriend and yes sometimes I wish the names were more distentive as keeping the old ladies streight in the dresden insident sometimes was hard but I am glad for all the books and I wish mr weber would hurry up and get the next two naval adventures done and sure wish they would be comming out this winter.

  31. James says:

    WTH, why are you complaining about the books DeMarce has written?. There are a few places where flints books may reference them but not in any earth shattering way. You dont need to read them to enjoy/understand flints main series. Nor do you have to read the GG’s. They have done their best to make sure of that.

    I have enjoyed the main books by flint and DW and the other books, as i read them with understanding that they were written by totally different authors in different styles. Its like people writing mil/sci fi, pol/sci fi and romance/sci fi in the same universe. You dont like mil/sci fi then only read the romantic/sci fi.

    As for just focusing on main characters or just Grantville I dont think thats what Flint is going for and i think it would be a shame. Some of the huge changes to ‘ordinary’ peoples lives through things that happen in the main series is very interesting. Also I like a set of books focusing on Rome and the church. I would also like one focusing on Spain. Think about it, all the changes happening in Europe will spread to the rest of the world. All of a sudden history in Asia is changing. Whats happening with the Ottomans? There has been repeated hints that somethings going on down there ….. and i want to know what.

    Hell what would happen if one of the (now apparently endless) copies of history ended up with some native americans …… Do you think that England (or France since Richelieu was trying to do something about it) or anyone else could actually take over America if Native Americans suddenly had books and pamphlets describing how to advance mining, agri, production, medicine etc like Grantville has been distributing. While culture etc would effect it every other people has taken one look at what happened in history, thrown current conceptions to the winds to try to fend off the hordes of barbarians at the gates (or at least religious uprisings through intolerance, peasant uprisings, over throwing royal families etc which were fated to happen throughout the next few years/decades).

    Hrmm this is ending up a bit long so ill stop but alternative history offers so many interesting possibilities.


  32. Peter S says:

    I have enjoyed all of the 1632 books. I like Virginia DeMarce for different reasons than Flint or Weber, and I like Andrew Dennis’s stuff in Italy for still other reasons. This series is a grand smorgasboard, spread with dozens of delectable offerings, and here some of you are griping that the host dared to serve muffins on the same table as beef! Sheesh. Try what you want, but please don’t talk down the things you don’t care for quite so caustically.

  33. Blackmoore says:

    @31, I would worry more that the French and Spanish would escalate the violence upon the native Americans, The natives of that time weren’t savages, but did seem to keep making the same mistake that they could keep the old ways, and still win against the europeans. The society of the natives was dominated by people who were seeped in tradition, and change was not embraced in the way you are thinking it would be.

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